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I'm a very reliable SnG and tournament player, but when it comes to ring games I'm an ATM machine. I understand that you need to tighten up your game since the blinds never rise, but even then I still manage to lose money. I was just wondering if anyone had any advice for making the transition between SnG's and ring games. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Post some hand histories so we can try and figure out how/why you're losing money at ring? Just grab a bunch of hands and post them!
Hm. Come play at my tables :)
My guess is that you bluff too much and overvalue good hands. Don't bet too much with good hands - bet enough so that weaker good hands will call, giving you value, while still pricing out draws if that's a concern on the given board. Position matters a lot more because you're playing a lot more post-flop.
I made the transition from tourneys to ring a couple months ago and the more I play ring games, the more conservative and straightforward I've started playing. Trying to induce a bluff by slow playing 2 pair or TPTK is a recipe for disaster - just lead out and see what happens. And above all else, ring games are all about implied odds and pot odds. The more you understand these concepts and improve your ability to estimate implied odds, the better off you are. And this includes being mindful of the implied odds you are offering the table, too - If you decide you won't be able to lay down a given good hand, make sure you bet enough to keep the draws unprofitable.
Former tourney players (like me) tend to go insane with TPTK and top two pair. I'd bet you need to slow way down with these hands.
play half the hands you play now and check back in a few days
This advice is right on the money. I have gone from 60K hands at ring to the occassional MTT and STT ... and am always amazed at TPTK taking down a big pot. Especially in an MTT, it seems like everyone (or most everyone) is playing it like a SH game. I try to play my ring game and just have trouble moving up. So, in essesence, I have the opposite problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound & Fury
the thing for me when i made the transition was remembering that i dont really need to win the pot, in tourneys it is much more important to win a high percentage of the pots you play in, where as in cash games it is not about winning a high percentage of pots as much as it is important to wing big pots with strong hands and play only small pots w/ hands that may only be second best, such as tp/tk. you may want to brush up on your pot odds and stuff too, if you haven't reviewed all that stuff recently.
you dont get value
you dont use implied odds well
you go broke with tpgk
Normal mistakes
Automatic Teller Machine Machine?Quote:
Originally Posted by DentonSlick
Grammer police?Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
position and agression, learn em and love em
try not to go broke with any 1 pair hand with full stacks (doesn't always apply, but usually)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by EricE
{EDIT: damnit warpe beat me}
I WAS GONNA CORRECT THAT TOO
look at all you english majors go :P
Here is some good advice (I play nl 200/nl400 at FT)
1. Position is more important then anything, I would say even then your cards. But what does this mean? It means that each position has different hands that you can play. A hand that is a raise everytime on the button you might not even be able to call a raise with out of the small blind.
A. Small blind/Big Blind- CALL any pocket pair (as long as the raiser has at least 10x his raise in his stack) CALL good high cards (jq suited and better, but youll have to be tighter in your selection the more people there in the pot). For example i wouldnt call a raise with kj if there was a raise and a call, but i would call against a prolific blind stealer) CALL all suited connectors better than 23 in multiway pots and play for a strong flop)
-RAISE 1010 and better aq suited and better. Again I wouldnt raise with 1010 if there was a raise and two callers, i would probably just call and play for a set.
B. Under the Gun- Play tight/aggressive
-I limp/call any pocket pair and play for a set, also limp call 9/10 suited and j/10 suited (just to mix it up)
-Other then the above I raise or fold anything I play, depending on the table dynamics that could be anywhere from 77 to 99 and better, a9suited to aj suited and better
-at a decent table fold ajo and worse kqo and worse. I play very tight from UTG , at lower limits I feel that works best for me.
C. 2 from button
-Same as above but id widen my raising range to include qjsuited+, a8 suited+, and 77+.
-Id also try to sneak in woth a lot more drawing hands ,78+, j9suited +
D. 1 from button
-In an unraised pot id open with anything here, A2suited+, a5o +, k9suited+, q9+, any PP, any suited connector 56+. Id try to limp with any suited cards with str8 possibilities
E. Button
-My money maker, Id raise the blinds with any two cards, and raise the pot with any decent two cards. Again the more limpers there are the more selective you need to be. Because you NEED to raise the pot preflop if there are several callers the pot will be huge and it will be difficult to outplay multiple players on the flop. So you might not want to be making 25$ raises preflop with ace two. Feel free to limp with drawing hands in family pots.
Continuation bets:
I continuation bet 2/3 to 3/4 pot no matter if i hit or missed, but i only do this if it is heads up. Take the free card if there are multiple callers and be prepared to lay it down. I also wouldnt Cbet into a calling station out of position or if I had zero outs.
NOTE: on a ragged flop (ex you have a8 and the flop comes 224 rainbow) you may want to bet closer to the full amount of the pot to make it seem as you have a small overpair that you are trying to defend)
This position dependent srategy will have the benefit if giving you a maniacal image although you are playing relatively few pots. Try it out and see how fast people play back at you with mid pair.
KEEP IN MIND
Because you are always raising when entering the pot people will assume that you are always playing trash. Identify the players who are tight and play back at you with premium hands, and identify the ones who will play back at you hard with weak top pair. You should be checking hand histories and takeing notes and betting patterns and playing styles. So long as youre playing less then 4 tables this is relatively easy to find time for. Adjust your calling/reraising ranges accordingly to postflop checkraises and lead ins.
ALSO: Very important, DONT buy in short, you need to have a big stack in front of you, if you get short even by one big blind you need to reload. Get in the mindset that you want to play for BIG pots, and you will be. You need to have the max amount of chips in front of you so that you can TAKE the max amount of chips from your opponents.
Last thing, expect some variance, you need to have a decent roll of close to 20 buy ins at least
Oh yeah, something I still have trouble dealing with...Dont bluff. That read you got on weak mid pair? Theyll call you anyway, just limit your bluffs to C bets and small, unraised pots.
You are in the same boat as I was (or still is). I am a successful SNG and MTT player but was bleeding cash at ring games. However, a few things have helped to straighten things out and now I'm making good money on the 25NL and will move up to 50NL soon.
The most important thing I have changes was that I got a good software package. I use PT & PAHUD in ring games and I can't believe why I was "flying blind" at cash games before.
Also learn to control your aggression when it comes to Button and Blind play. I noticed that I was just way to aggro in cash games in those positions.
My first guess is you aren't being aggressive enough post flop, or too aggressive preflop.
My second guess is you're overvaluing top pair. There's alot of nut campers in ring, and top pair is not as strong of a hand when people aren't being forced to play because of the blinds.
The switch from SnGs to ring was a little tough for me at first, because of all the post flop play (tournaments dont have nearly as much post flop play), but once I got the hang of it, I realized how much more it fit my style.
You'll have lower blood pressure playing ring too :) No spending 4 hours building your stack in a tournament only to bust 1 position from the money.
Also remember in cash games you can be up against anything. Guys are able to shake things up and throw in some pretty weird hands once in a while. One of my problems making the transition was this. Like it has been said numerous times, you're probably going all in with TPTK when some guy hit two pair with 57s.
In SnGs, where I would go after a guy's stack like a dog after a treat, with semi-decent hands in ring you need to learn pot control so the guy's betting will tell you something. Otherwise a set will stack you everytime.
Hopefully this makes sense!
If you're playing a 10 person Sit N Go, after 1 hour, it's likely that 9-out-of-10 players have lost their ENTIRE stack, with one person holding all the chips.
At a full ring, that NEVER happens. Think about what that says about how people are playing.
If I double-up from a full stack in a tourny, I'm thinking, "Well, that helps a bit." If I double-up at ring game, I'm THRILLED.