Too aggressive and then too passive? Need help

Hey, I'm new here, but not new to poker. I'm a winning limit player who made the transition to NL25, and it's been quite a bumpy ride.

I've read Doyle's SS and tried to apply it to my NL game. It's not working out too well. I play quite aggressively, and try to build a loose image by winning pots that I raised PF with 94s and the likes. Then I slow down and wait for big cards. I don't need help with hand histories, as I can tell where I went wrong usually (bluffed at the wrong time, called too much with an overpair, bet the draw wrong, etc etc), but just my overall style.

I've got the BR for NL25 (just about $400 now, thanks to a couple of idiotic lottery attempts at NL$600, yes I know, and no I'm never doing it again). I double table and usually I'll do great on one table and shitty on another. On one table I'll be up $125, and have people calling my aces down with mid pair, and the other I'll just be getting beat to crap and be down 3 buyins. So every night, depending on my luck, is either break even or lose a couple of buyins. Then I'll slow down a bit, thinking I'm just too loose, but then other players loosen up and start bluffing at me, and I start folding the best hands. So I call them down more and THEN they've got me beat.

I'm at a loss, does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong? Are you only supposed to get trickier at the higher lvls against much better players? Should I be playing mechanical limit-style poker, only playing big cards and pairs? Should I slow down or speed up even more?

Any responses are appreciated.

Trick plays are wasted at 25NL. Try the other way around. Start tight and then loosen up. I think you are over valueing table image at such low stakes. Play the cards on the board, treat everyone like an idiot till they prove otherwise and stop thinking everyone is bluffing at you. Read a couple of the beginner digest threads at the top of this forum, and then come back and start posting some hands when you think you have it. Super system is only one book, read a few more, Doyle is hard to emulate at these low stakes, you can't scare people off of $4 pots when they have top pair.

Thank you, that's exactly what I was wondering about. I was starting to think that tricky plays and image are useless this low, but I went with it anyway.

Will do on the idiot thing btw, I give 'em too much credit :P.

read the stickys in the digest they are gold for 25NL and lower

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Originally Posted by brewpub

Thank you, that's exactly what I was wondering about. I was starting to think that tricky plays and image are useless this low, but I went with it anyway.

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It's not useless, but not as necessary as you might think. There is absolutely no need to raise 94o just to set an image or something. To murder the lower stakes, keep the pot small until you hit, then overplay your hand. Only start mixing in bluffs against people AFTER they have laid down to you overplaying your made hands. And sometimes, it's good to slowplay like hell (ie, before the river), it'll make some of em go super aggro on their nothing hands, even hand you their stack with middle pair and such.

Good luck.

1) Make a good hand: TPGK or better.
2) Bet it really hard like you have the nuts. 2/3 pot bets = hard.
3) If you get raised , fold unless you have the near nuts. Because fishies only ever get aggressive when they have really good hands.
4) Don't use tricky plays. Tricky plays are check raises etc. Just bet.
5) Forget about image. At 25NL you have no image.
6) Basically you are set hunting. Live with it, it makes money.
7) If you have less then or equal to TPTK and you get raised you should fold, always.
8) Rince, repeat and it all comes out in the wash.

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3) If you get raised , fold unless you have the near nuts. Because fishies only ever get aggressive when they have really good hands.

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I agree whole heartedly. watch #3 though, what the fishies think are really good hands is probably something completely different than you.
If you have a set and the board pairs, straightens or has 3 of the same suit, fold!
If you have a straight and the board pairs or has 3 of the same suit, fold!
If you have a flush and the board pairs, fold!

Agree with most, except these:

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

4) Don't use tricky plays. Tricky plays are check raises etc. Just bet.

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Strongly disagree here. Check/raises make a lot of money on the lower stakes, because people tend to call them even if they know better. Don't EVER use them as bluffs however. In general people can't stop themselves from calling them.

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6) Basically you are set hunting. Live with it, it makes money.

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Maybe this applies to FR? In SH this is not true at all.. nearly zero of my profit is from sets. I've had long term real bad luck with sets personally, and I'm running at high winrates nonetheless.

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7) If you have less then or equal to TPTK and you get raised you should fold, always.

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There are very profitable exceptions here. But it depends on reads. Some people like to push draws. Calling them with TPTK is very +EV, ie makes you good money.

I'm giving basic answers to someone with basic problems. He will notice the exceptions when he is ready to react correctly to them. Telling him about them now will cause the trickyness to creep in again.

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I agree whole heartedly. watch #3 though, what the fishies think are really good hands is probably something completely different than you.
If you have a set and the board pairs, straightens or has 3 of the same suit, fold!
If you have a straight and the board pairs or has 3 of the same suit, fold!
If you have a flush and the board pairs, fold!

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Is this only if you're pushed allin or what? Because if you're just getting called and then the board 3flushes, and you keep betting, and they just keep calling, it's okay to play it right?

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

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3) If you get raised , fold unless you have the near nuts. Because fishies only ever get aggressive when they have really good hands.

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I agree whole heartedly. watch #3 though, what the fishies think are really good hands is probably something completely different than you.
If you have a set and the board pairs, straightens or has 3 of the same suit, fold!
If you have a straight and the board pairs or has 3 of the same suit, fold!
If you have a flush and the board pairs, fold!

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Ya ok, I agree with you here. Use some judgement.

Bty beerpub, the examples Trainer gives here are things you shouldn't do. He's pointing out examples where following my advice would cause you to do the wrong thing.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

Agree with most, except these:

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

4) Don't use tricky plays. Tricky plays are check raises etc. Just bet.

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Strongly disagree here. Check/raises make a lot of money on the lower stakes, because people tend to call them even if they know better. Don't EVER use them as bluffs however. In general people can't stop themselves from calling them.

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Passive player love to check behind. Actually wait.. ok check raises in the right spots are ok. I just realised that there is loads of cash available from check raising people with overpairs and TP on the turn when you have a set.

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6) Basically you are set hunting. Live with it, it makes money.

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Maybe this applies to FR? In SH this is not true at all.. nearly zero of my profit is from sets. I've had long term real bad luck with sets personally, and I'm running at high winrates nonetheless.

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I'm talking FR here. I don't believe beginners should start off on short handed tables.

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7) If you have less then or equal to TPTK and you get raised you should fold, always.

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There are very profitable exceptions here. But it depends on reads. Some people like to push draws. Calling them with TPTK is very +EV, ie makes you good money.

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See my post about exceptions above.

Ok then I pretty much agree.

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Ya ok, I agree with you here. Use some judgement.

Bty beerpub, the examples Trainer gives here are things you shouldn't do. He's pointing out examples where following my advice would cause you to do the wrong thing.

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Irish, I think by me stating this I just want to have even a NooB pay attention to the board. Maybe instead of saying what you or I said, #3 should be expanded for the beginner to include that if you get into a situation that I described maybe they should slow down and if raised then fold as you suggest.

Jack, you have to stop giving more advanced advice in threads where the questions are basic in nature. You keep talking about more advanced concepts to people who ask about micro stakes, TAGG, FR (Full Ring for the beginner). If a beginner doesn't understand set hunting, he will get into losing stacks with middle PP and low PP situations. You need to get out more. You keep jumping stakes, playing out of your roll and denying what was preached by so many to you at the beginning. No one doubts your abilities, just your methods of posting and refuting the beginner advice. You can't keep talking about player reads, 6max, implied odds, EV and the likes till they ask. Not everyone is a 21 year old math wizard with balls the size of tomatoes, some of us want to learn the game and beat the game, like Renton, Biondino, Andy and others have, that have only been in the game for under a year.

Welcome to FTR, Brew.

As you can see, we do anything for beer around here.

Ya, and add my two canadian boys to that list above, Warpe and bankitpayette!!!!

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Jack, you have to stop giving more advanced advice in threads where the questions are basic in nature.

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Eh what are you talking about? Did you read my initial advice in this thread? Pretty simple no?..

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You keep jumping stakes, playing out of your roll and denying what was preached by so many to you at the beginning.

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I started playing again like 3 days ago and I'm actually trying to do it right now. Go me. (I wanted to make a thread about that, but I figured to see if I can keep it up first, my track record hasn't been too great in that respect.. had to resist the urge today to cash out my winnings today to buy a HD, lol)

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You can't keep talking about player reads, 6max, implied odds, EV and the likes till they ask.

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Ofcourse I can. And look at the first post. He's not some clueless beginner who knows nothing about the game. My interpretation is that he grasps the concepts, but needs to see them fall into place. My responses were in regards to that assesment of his skill level.

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Not everyone is a 21 year old math wizard with balls the size of tomatoes, some of us want to learn the game and beat the game, like Renton, Biondino, Andy and others have, that have only been in the game for under a year.

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I don't really understand the point you are getting at here? What does my advice have to do with you guys?

EDIT: wait, you had some grudge with me right? That would make sense.

Thanks a bunch for the advice. Overall the gist I've gotten from your guys' responses was pick my spots, play smart and just think.

I applied that tonight, put a bit more value on PPs, played my good hands way more aggressively than usual and backed off when it didn't feel right.

I'm up 3 buyins, and I folded kings to a board of 578 after a bunch of raising PF. Some guy pushed in, I folded, he had pocket 8s, the other guy had aces. It reeked of a set, and I was right :D. Felt good.

Then again it might just be variance that I'm up a few buyins.

Anyway, thanks a bunch guys. Appreciate it, it's finally starting to "click."

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

like Renton, Biondino, Andy and others have, that have only been in the game for under a year.

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Ahem... :lol: :lol: :roll:

apologies, sir, I did not know you had less experience at this poker thing than most. You have years of wisdom. But you get my point, no??

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

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Ya ok, I agree with you here. Use some judgement.

Bty beerpub, the examples Trainer gives here are things you shouldn't do. He's pointing out examples where following my advice would cause you to do the wrong thing.

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Irish, I think by me stating this I just want to have even a NooB pay attention to the board. Maybe instead of saying what you or I said, #3 should be expanded for the beginner to include that if you get into a situation that I described maybe they should slow down and if raised then fold as you suggest.

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I don't really understand what you mean here?
If you have a set and the board pairs then you have a FH.
If you have a flush and the board pairs then I only fold if I get a whole bunce of unexpected action.

oh ok, on the set i made a mistake. That is a an error on my part. I never re-read what I typed and if you have a set and the board pairs you should move to the full house point. as for what I meant is that when you said

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"If you get raised , fold unless you have the near nuts.

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Because fishies only ever get aggressive when they have really good hands. I was only trying to point out that what they (the fishies) consider really good hands may not be the near nuts. I get raised all the time with aggresion by guys holding Ax and thinking an ace on board is gold. They have a 66 PP and think that a paired board gives them two pair and thats a great hand to them. So I was mearly pointing out that what is a raising hand is not always the best hand to the fishies and noobies need to learn to read the board and know the nuts.

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

apologies, sir, I did not know you had less experience at this poker thing than most. You have years of wisdom. But you get my point, no??

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Not sure who you are talking to here.. but I have only been playing poker for 3 months.

Three months and 1500 posts, Which puts you by the way, on page one of the most posts out of over 7000 members and the only person other than Renton (who I am totally trying to be) that registered in 2006. take it for what it's worth. Oh and I was apologizing to Irish for leaving him out of my list of people I'm trying to emulate with minimum game time and an increasing but dicsiplined BR.

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

three months and 1500 posts, Oh and I was apologizing to Irish for leaving him out of my list of people I'm trying to emulate with minimum game time and an increasing but dicsiplined BR.

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You're getting weirder by the second here. Generally I think the advice you give here is sound, but I just don't get the point of what you're saying here, much less understand why it has anything to do with me giving advice.

C'mon boys, keep it civil and focussed on poker. No need for personality conflicts and pissing contests.

Hey, sorry to kind of revive this thread, but I was just wondering if there any books in particular you guys would recommend that talk about NL cash games in specific? I'll explore tourneys later on.

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Originally Posted by brewpub

Hey, sorry to kind of revive this thread, but I was just wondering if there any books in particular you guys would recommend that talk about NL cash games in specific? I'll explore tourneys later on.

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I'm hearing good things about Sklansky's No Limit Hold Em - Theory and Practice, which just came out. Mine's on order at my bookstore so I should have it next week.