AK against big stack

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06-19-2006, 07:33 PM
samsonite2100

AK against big stack

Bodog 100NL. Hero is fullstacked UTG+1 with :ad: :ks: UTG calls, Hero raises to $4.50, SB (200BB stack) calls, UTG calls. Pot=$14.50

Flop------ :ac: :9c: :3d: ----- SB bets $3.50, UTG calls, Hero raises to $18, SB calls, UTG folds. Pot=$54

Turn----- :6h: --------- SB checks, Hero...

Okay, I know you're supposed to bet here, and I did, but my question is how much. Standard 2/3? The reason I ask is betting $36 here drops me to about $40 behind. Am I totally pot-committed at that point if he check/raises? And does the fact that SB is tall-stacked make a difference in how I should play this?
I know this seems like kind of an elementary hand and maybe it is--but just started moving up to 100NL and may still be experiencing growing pains.
06-19-2006, 07:42 PM
Fnord

You did this to yourself on the flop.
06-19-2006, 08:51 PM
Renton

His stack is irrelevant. In fact, it might actually be a good thing. Big stack fish generally loosen up big time and get big headed. If he's a standard decent player though it makes no difference.

I would just try to get all in here. I don't think you did anything wrong on the flop. Tons O' worse hands stack off against you here, and only three feasible hands that beat you.

If my gut told me I was in real danger here, I would probably check behind to keep the pot manageable and to open up villains betting/calling range on the river. The free card he gets sucks, but when you aren't confident in your own hand there's no reason not to give a free card.
06-19-2006, 09:35 PM
WhooFleuryScores

Bet roughly 1/2 to 3/5 of the pot if you are afraid of a set-if he pushes then you can fold since fish don't make moves.If you are confident you are ahead and he is on a draw you can bet 2/3 to push and make him make the decision.I would be convulsing violently the whole way though.
06-20-2006, 01:05 AM
samsonite2100

Quote:

You did this to yourself on the flop.

Hrrmmm? (said in Scooby Doo voice) Care to elaborate?
06-20-2006, 01:14 AM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Quote:

You did this to yourself on the flop.

Hrrmmm? (said in Scooby Doo voice) Care to elaborate?

You built a big pot.
06-20-2006, 01:54 AM
samsonite2100

Yeah, I get that, but is betting less an option? Is Fnord saying I should've just bet 1/2 pot--that's what I meant by "hrrrrmmm?"
06-20-2006, 02:29 AM
freechus9

I think you can call the flop bet and raise a turn bet.
06-20-2006, 03:08 AM
samsonite2100

??
06-20-2006, 03:09 AM
samsonite2100

Call $3.50 and then raise whatever they bet on the turn? That seems like a strange line.
06-20-2006, 06:15 AM
Renton

you have to protect your hand on this flop

stacks are going in the middle
06-20-2006, 06:26 AM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by freechus9

I think you can call the flop bet and raise a turn bet.

Then the pot would be even bigger.

If you raise the flop you can check behind the turn if you really dont want a big pot. If you raise the turn the pot will be huge.
06-20-2006, 12:11 PM
samsonite2100

Awesome avatar, Pelion. I played that game forever last night.
06-20-2006, 12:22 PM
Lukie

How about $25 straight on the flop, call a push if he's not a nit, and get it allin on any non-club turn.

Overplaying TPTK? Sure, but this game is really easy right?
06-20-2006, 01:03 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Overplaying TPTK? Sure, but this game is really easy right?

I think top pair of A's with AK is a worth overplaying a lot more frequently than most nits give it credit for. You can take peoples stacks a lot here where most people just value bet and settle for less.
06-20-2006, 01:05 PM
WhooFleuryScores

Unless villain is a smart player and is mixing up how he plays a set or two pair I still need to presume he's the one drawing and is trying to price himself in(I see this occurrence alot at NL25).Most fish and passives will wait to pop back their sets/two pairs on the turn or try to get you to ahng yourself on the flop.I still think a flop raise and turn push is good-if villain did trap you with the set/two pair make a note of that and avoid him in the future.
06-20-2006, 01:40 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

If you raise the flop you can check behind the turn if you really dont want a big pot.

Which yeilds control of the hand on the river. Also, we could get stop'n'goed on the turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

If you raise the turn the pot will be huge.

How do you figure?

Call flop, bet/raise turn will also min/max against a lot of hands in our opponent's range.
06-20-2006, 02:11 PM
samsonite2100

If all we do is call the flop here, we're bringing along two villains to see the turn for next to nothing. In position, with an obvious draw on the board, and holding a hand that is presently best but unlikely to improve, this seems like exactly what we don't want to do.

I'm surprised there's debate about the flop--I thought the turn was the uncertain street here.
06-20-2006, 03:19 PM
Renton

theres no way I am letting two clubs or a 9 see the turn for 3.50
06-20-2006, 03:28 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

theres no way I am letting two clubs or a 9 see the turn for 3.50

But you need to balance this against letting a better hand break you. Also, 2 clubs miss the turn roughly 4 out of 5 times and are really up shits creek when you hammer the turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

I'm surprised there's debate about the flop--I thought the turn was the uncertain street here.

One street flows into the next. We can't just decide on the best course of action on the flop without considering that there are two rounds of betting left and it's naive to think we just get to check them through.

I think the hero here didn't consider the impact on future streets by roughly potting it. A raise to around $12 would have accomplished many of the same goals, balance out better when you just want to call bullshit on a flop bet, but keep the pot size more in line. With so much money behind, I don't think it's practical to blow the flush draw out of the pot on the flop without letting better hands pwn us.

On the other hand, if hero thinks the SB sucks and is way ahead here and gets called down by lots of worse hands, then blast away. Pot commit on the turn and don't look back.
06-20-2006, 04:03 PM
samsonite2100

Two points:

1) If we bet less than ~ pot on the flop here, we better hope that the sequence of villains' hands we're facing isn't Sb=Ax or PP/UTG=club draw--and that sequence, based on the betting is the most likely one here. A $12 bet called by SB gives UTG expressly correct odds to draw out on us.

2) Over half the cards that hit on the turn are bad cards for us. Nine flush cards + nine Ax cards (where x=10/J/Q non club) + six 9 or 3 non clubs = 24 out of 47. And we wouldn't really love some of the other ones, like a 7 or an 8, since we have to include mid PPs in villains' possible ranges. In other words, we're unlikely to feel as good about our hand when the turn card comes and therefore should put our $ in now rather than later.
06-20-2006, 04:10 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

A $12 bet called by SB gives UTG expressly correct odds to draw out on us.

Assuming we pay off? You're also assuming that you're ahead here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

In other words, we're unlikely to feel as good about our hand when the turn card comes and therefore should put our $ in now rather than later.

However, if called there is still a lot of money behind and we're now unlikely to feel good about our hand in a big pot with 2 streets to play.

I think this comes down to "Do we want to play a big pot here?" You don't seem to be confident enough in your hand to quickly answer YES! I really don't mind a litte uncertainty in a raised pot with a weak bet. I really do mind busting out the big bets and still not knowing where I'm at. That often ends badly for my inner LHE player.
06-20-2006, 04:17 PM
givememyleg

Odds shmods!
06-20-2006, 04:21 PM
samsonite2100

Quote:

Assuming we pay off? You're also assuming that you're ahead here.

I'm not assuming I'm ahead. I think I'm likely ahead.

Quote:

However, if called there is still a lot of money behind and we're now unlikely to feel good about our hand in a big pot with 2 streets to play.

True, which is why I posted the hand in the first place. Fortunately, checking behind if he checks the turn is an option. As you pointed out, this does leave us open to attack on the river, but as a way of controlling the pot it seems preferable to calling the flop, which leaves two villains drawing out on us instead of one.

Quote:

I really don't mind a little uncertainty in a raised pot with a weak bet.

I don't either, but I think it comes down to which street we want that weakness to fall on.
06-20-2006, 05:46 PM
Fnord

We can argue about a lot of details about this hand. Reads/feel/mix-up play enough of a role, I don't see much point in taking that further.

But what I will fault you for here is making that flop raise without going so far as to think ahead to what you were going to do if called and checked to on a blank turn. With escalating effective stakes on every street of a typical NLHE hand, you have to know at least 1 step ahead how you plan to play the majority of the deck.
06-20-2006, 06:16 PM
samsonite2100

Quote:

But what I will fault you for here is making that flop raise without going so far as to think ahead to what you were going to do if called and checked to on a blank turn.

Thinking about what to do and not coming up with a satisfactory answer (hence the post), and not thinking about what to do at all are two different beasts.
For the record, I half-potted the turn and he folded.