Full house facing scary overbet on river - easy?

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06-15-2006, 04:08 PM
Borax

Full house facing scary overbet on river - easy?

NL (£0.15/£0.25) Ring game

MP1 (£20.73 in chips)
MP2 (£37.55 in chips)
CO (£50.60 in chips)
Button (£21.40 in chips)
Hero (£31.37 in chips) (SB)
BB (£30.81 in chips)
UTG (£13.20 in chips)
UTG+1 (£5.40 in chips)
UTG+2 (£9.30 in chips)

Hero: posts SB £0.15
BB posts £0.25

dealt to Hero :3d::8s:

UTG: folds
UTG+1: calls £0.25
UTG+2: folds
MP1: calls £0.25
MP2: calls £0.25
CO: folds
Button: folds
Hero: calls £0.10
BB: checks

----- FLOP ----- :3s::Jd::8d:

Hero: bets £1
BB: folds
UTG+1: folds
MP1: folds
MP2: calls £1

----- TURN ----- :Td:

Hero: checks
MP2: bets £2
Hero: calls £2

----- RIVER ----- :3h:

Hero: checks
MP2: bets £34.30 and is all-in
Hero: :?:

PT-Read MP2: Not much, only 50 hands = LAA, raised 8.7% PRF.
06-15-2006, 04:10 PM
Fnord

Well so much for check/raising the river...

I gamble here.
06-15-2006, 04:15 PM
Borax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Well so much for check/raising the river...

I gamble here.

You don't like the check raise idea, or?
06-15-2006, 04:15 PM
dzeanah

Is it a gamble though?

Looks to me like it's likely that the villain saw a quick shot at the pot, then a weak call, then more weakness on the river. Might even be pushing a flush.

Does anyone think this looks like JJ TT or 88?

Does anyone not call on the river?
06-15-2006, 04:17 PM
andy-akb

Id expect to see a flush more than a boat here, why the check on the river? Hoping for a check raise, right? Iwould personally lead the river, if you check then I think you have to call this.
06-15-2006, 04:18 PM
dalecooper

I donk this river. As played, I insta-call. He has a flush a whole lot of the time and I don't think you can fold this very interesting boat on that board.
06-15-2006, 04:19 PM
Fnord

If villian is any good, he's got a hand here bigger than the under-full a lot. Pushing when a smaller bet would do the trick is silly.
06-15-2006, 04:22 PM
Warpe

Call all day but lead on the river. If he has JJ, TT or (unlikely) 88, nh gg.
06-15-2006, 04:24 PM
dalecooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

If villian is any good, he's got a hand here bigger than the under-full a lot. Pushing when a smaller bet would do the trick is silly.

I agree, which leaves us with the very interesting question of how good this guy is. A good player I'd expect to have eights or tens full often enough that this is a dangerous call. Of course the 8s full seems somewhat unlikely, and good players aren't usually limping TT from that seat, but it's possible. But a bad player I'd expect to have a flush ("tryin' to get paid! WOOOO") or a bluff a lot of the time - but also possibly tens or eights full. So reads might be involved. Against an unknown, given the stakes, I don't think about it too much.
06-15-2006, 04:36 PM
Borax

Thanks for the support guys. I played this hand after the hand in my last post where a flopped straight busted my AA and cost me a stack.
This was a really bad poker day for me given this:

Hero: call and is all-in £28.12
Returned uncalled bets £6.18 to MP2

----- SHOW DOWN -----
MP2: shows :9d::7d: (Straight Flush, Jack high)
Hero: shows :3d::8s: (A Full House, Threes full of Eights)
MP2 collects £60.49 from Main pot

Funny enough both hands cost me my stack to 97s :liar:
I need to rebuild my stack and the trust in my game...Both times my intuition said something was wrong but both times I called anyway...
06-15-2006, 04:42 PM
dalecooper

Daaaaammmn. Sorry man, that's horrible. His river push is pure gold - he's looking to get paid by full boats and regular flushes, maybe a straight, and forget everybody else. And this result here is exactly why he did it.
06-15-2006, 04:45 PM
swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borax

Both times my intuition said something was wrong but both times I called anyway...

I understand the feeling. Make sure you keep track of the crazy big bets that you call, and win. There are times where you call this and they flip 78c or something stupid, then you wonder why you were worried.
06-15-2006, 05:17 PM
Borax

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borax

Both times my intuition said something was wrong but both times I called anyway...

I understand the feeling. Make sure you keep track of the crazy big bets that you call, and win. There are times where you call this and they flip 78c or something stupid, then you wonder why you were worried.

Yes, I always make a note to opponents calling large river bets and
I now have two good notes on these two opponents as well (expensive notes though...).

I think maybe I could have folded my AA to the push (the other post), but I would have called the straight flush again, due to the chance of a flush.
06-15-2006, 05:35 PM
Thee One

Re: Full house facing scary overbet on river - easy?

I call it. I'm just not sure I can lay this down to what's probably just a flush. I obviously didn't read the thread before I commented. :-)

That sucks man.
06-15-2006, 06:20 PM
Rockymv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

If villian is any good, he's got a hand here bigger than the under-full a lot. Pushing when a smaller bet would do the trick is silly.

That's if he's good. Borax says he's LAgg. For us to be beat, he'd have to have limped JJ or TT in MP (I'm ignoring that actual results because the SF is so incredibly unlikely). Does a good LAgg ever do that? And if he's not good, this is an easy call anyway. This just doesn't add up to us ever being beat here IMO. I would call so fast you can't believe it. What am I missing? I guess I can't understand why this is anything other than the easiest call ever.
06-15-2006, 06:35 PM
Miffed22001

how is this not a call?
what exactly beats us here? Not a lot.

Btw, 83o is a fold in the sb for me....
06-15-2006, 07:26 PM
Borax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

how is this not a call?
what exactly beats us here? Not a lot.

Btw, 83o is a fold in the sb for me....

Calling 0.1$ to a 1.15£ pot PRF is an "any two"-call for me.
06-15-2006, 07:40 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borax

Calling 0.1$ to a 1.15£ pot PRF is an "any two"-call for me.

I'm not saying the call is wrong. However, I think looking at it that way is seriously flawed. All the money figures to go into the pot post-flop. Gettting my share of the 1.15 in the pot is the least of my concerns.
06-15-2006, 08:38 PM
Renton

refrain from playing unsuited junk in the worst position at the table, what ever the cost.
06-15-2006, 09:19 PM
givememyleg

This is why I don't complete the sb with the second worst hand in poker.

As played I think I have to call here.
06-15-2006, 10:06 PM
samsonite2100

This is a bad beat post masquerading as a HH post. How is this ever anything but a call?
06-16-2006, 04:44 AM
Borax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borax

Calling 0.1$ to a 1.15£ pot PRF is an "any two"-call for me.

I'm not saying the call is wrong. However, I think looking at it that way is seriously flawed. All the money figures to go into the pot post-flop. Gettting my share of the 1.15 in the pot is the least of my concerns.

As you say Fnord the PRF was not the point of the hand, but as someone commented on it, I do not see the point from people not calling with trash here . So I have a general comment on that :)

With >10:1 odds on completing the SB with only limpers, I'll gladly do it with any two cards. "Not getting yourself into situations where your full house loose to a straight flush" doesn't make sence. Obviously the 83o hand will be folded on the flop most of the time and I would make no move in a multi pot flopping a 3 or 8, but flopping two pair or better with trash after entering the pot for exceptionally good odds will often take down a nice pot. I would even go as far as saying it's probably a mistake (small, but still) not to do it at those odds. But, I aggree that if you can't lay down the hand to a bet post flop after flopping JT3, then do not play the 83 at all.

As to if this is a bad beat post. I do not aggree. I had to consider the possible holdings of a better full house besides the flush or straight flush possibilities in this hand and given the large push I do not see this hand as an instant call.
06-16-2006, 11:26 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borax

but flopping two pair or better with trash after entering the pot for exceptionally good odds will often take down a nice pot.

Sounds like a really nice second best hand to me. Most players tend to correctly play a bit tighter in an unraised pot. Also, you have the worst position making pot control and min/maxing difficult at best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borax

I would even go as far as saying it's probably a mistake (small, but still) not to do it at those odds.

WHAT ODDS?!?!?!!? THE MONEY IN THE POT MEANS NEXT TO NOTHING!
06-17-2006, 02:28 PM
Borax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

WHAT ODDS?!?!?!!? THE MONEY IN THE POT MEANS NEXT TO NOTHING!

:eh?: I still don't get why this needs discussion.
1.15/0.1 = 11.5. It's close to the cheapest flop you'll ever see. Why then care what cards you hold? Just call and see the flop. Also a pot of 1.15£ (4.6% of max buy in) doen't matter? I'm confused now.
06-17-2006, 02:53 PM
Genitruc

Fold getting 11-1?

Aren't odds 1-10 of flopping 2 pair/better? Y not take a deal on a monster, whether you'll be oop or not?
06-17-2006, 03:09 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

WHAT ODDS?!?!?!!? THE MONEY IN THE POT MEANS NEXT TO NOTHING!

:eh?: I still don't get why this needs discussion.
1.15/0.1 = 11.5. It's close to the cheapest flop you'll ever see. Why then care what cards you hold? Just call and see the flop. Also a pot of 1.15£ (4.6% of max buy in) doen't matter? I'm confused now.

I'll let someone else chime in here.

Position is huge, because if you're acting last post-flop you can profitably play a lot more hands, including air. As first to fire into a nothing pot it's much more difficult.
06-17-2006, 03:37 PM
Borax

Ok :)
I know that my position is bad and as long as I'm aware of that I think it's ok to call cheap from the SB now and then. And I really need to hit the flop hard to continue play the hand post flop.

Anyway, I should say thank you to you aggressive guys on this forum since my stats have improved quite a lot in ring games lately. For my last 10 000 hands PT now rate me to be TA on the borderline of SLAA compared to earlier SLPA. My PRF raise is up from 4.5% to 7.6% and I'm taking down many more pots on aggression than before, mainly due to feed back and advice on this forum. So I listen, even if I do not allways aggree :) Thanks!