$200NL FR AQ Hand

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06-07-2006, 10:45 AM
lambchopdc

$200NL FR AQ Hand

Villian has been on the table for 5 hands, has taken down 1 pot on the flop. This is the 2nd hand he hasn't folded preflop. I have no reads on him, no way he can have any reads on me. Am i just being a donkey here or does he have Qx or a flush draw enough to make calling profitable?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($230.90)
MP2 ($385)
MP3 ($204.78)
CO ($246.05)
Hero ($323.83)
SB ($82.09)
BB ($431.50)
UTG ($262.95)
UTG+1 ($226.05)
UTG+2 ($209.95)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $2, 5 folds, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $6.

Flop: ($19) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $15, UTG+1 calls $218.05 (All-In), Hero calls $203.05.

Turn: ($455.10) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($455.10) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $455.10

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Ks Kd (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has Qh Ah (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $455.10.
06-07-2006, 10:48 AM
Warpe

Yeah, against an unknown, fold that mother down.
06-07-2006, 10:54 AM
andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Yeah, against an unknown, fold that mother down.

I agree it would be tough to call it against an unknown, but what exactly do you put him on that beats us here?
06-07-2006, 10:55 AM
lambchopdc

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Yeah, against an unknown, fold that mother down.

I agree it would be tough to call it against an unknown, but what exactly do you put him on that beats us here?

Thats what i couldn't figure out, villian's line is retarded, no matter what he has.
06-07-2006, 11:07 AM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Yeah, against an unknown, fold that mother down.

I agree it would be tough to call it against an unknown, but what exactly do you put him on that beats us here?

Thats what i couldn't figure out, villian's line is retarded, no matter what he has.

Not everyone reraises AA/KK preflop. He's obviously not afraid of the flop, and you don't have enough history on him to know whether he likes to smooth call preflop with monsters. It's an auto-fold for me.
06-07-2006, 11:56 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Thats what i couldn't figure out, villian's line is retarded, no matter what he has.

Is it really that retarded? I sometimes will limp KK in this spot if I'm hoping someone will raise at some point down the board so I can re-raise. I usually don't do this unless I want to change things up on a fairly active table. He knows he's going to be the only one up against you so he changes the game plan and just calls you. No point in defining his hand, after all, it is a pretty obvious line when he makes that re-raise preflop. Then he just got the ideal flop against your hand.

No way you could have seen what he had but I'd still lay it down when someone bets at me like that who I have no history with. A $23 mistake beats a $226 one.
06-07-2006, 12:17 PM
EricE

I agree. If I held KK there I would do the same. The flop is perfect for his hand and you fell in the trap.

Edit: With Ks, I would play it the same PF. Post flop I am not sure.
06-07-2006, 12:21 PM
Lukie

lamb,

can you do me a favor and visit this link? thanks.

http://tinyurl.com/zdj66
06-07-2006, 12:25 PM
siknd

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricE

I agree. If I held KK there I would do the same. The flop is perfect for his hand and you fell in the trap.

preflop yeah. the flop all in is just silly. the fact that he got a caller was lucky. hes forcing hero to hold AA/QQ or make a terrible chase with flush draw (on a paired board to boot).

if hes super laggy its not impossible for him to hold acefour either.

its tough, and im not saying i never make this mistake, but i think you need to just say nh and find a bettr spot here.
06-07-2006, 12:45 PM
EricE

I fell for this exact play the other day.

I am not sure I would push with Ks on that flop but he got a call so he played it fine. Results speak for the move.
06-07-2006, 01:59 PM
Irisheyes

So who folds this in Lamb situation?

I call because the flush draw is there.
06-07-2006, 02:03 PM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I call because the flush draw is there.

That's crazy talk.
06-07-2006, 02:27 PM
jackvance

Eh, if he's on a draw, you still get sucked out on 36% of the time, and if he really has the 4, or AA/KK/QQ, you're a big dog.. here I just give people the benefit of the doubt and fold. I really don't see why you call a $200 raise on a $34 pot. My reaction would be "wtf idiot?".. and then I'll fold and keep an eye on this guy from then on to see if he routinely does this. If he does, then it's time to trap him.. otherwise it was probably a good fold by me.
06-07-2006, 02:35 PM
Fnord

...what Lukie said.
06-07-2006, 11:14 PM
Chicago_Kid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

lamb,

can you do me a favor and visit this link? thanks.

http://tinyurl.com/zdj66

ROFL-COPTER, I had to change my shorts after that.
06-07-2006, 11:32 PM
bigred

That's a weird trap he pulled on you lamb. I've made that call in a couple spots against players who recently joined a table and were playing everyhand like maniacs. However, in your situation, I'd probably just wait for a better spot.
06-08-2006, 03:13 AM
lambchopdc

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricE

I agree. If I held KK there I would do the same. The flop is perfect for his hand and you fell in the trap.

Edit: With Ks, I would play it the same PF. Post flop I am not sure.

The reason Villian's line is retarded is that he has no information to pull this off. This is his 5th hand on the table. Ive folded every hand he's seen. For all he knows i'm the table nit. My raising range could be JJ-AA, AKs, AK. Now its not, but he doesn't have that info. He limps in EP hoping to get raised, he gets what he wants, he has to re-raise here. His flop push is even more retarded. He's lucky I had a loose calling range in this spot. He's only a coinflip (49.525%) against what my actual range was (AQ, AsKs, QQ, KK, AA) and way behind (13.955%) the calling range of a tighter player (AA, KK, QQ, AsKs). I still should have folded obv. but in the overall scheme of things his line is retarded.
06-08-2006, 03:22 AM
Lukie

lamb,

To be perfectly honest, against an unknown, I'm really compelled to call here. I'm not so sure how good that is though, given how transparent your hand is.
06-08-2006, 03:25 AM
Lukie

Also, I have to give credit to lamb for the link.. I stole it from him.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...087&highlight=
06-08-2006, 04:24 AM
Renton

Its not a bad call, but its so close and stack ratios are so high that TPTK is definitely getawayfromable here.

If it is your intent to practice a low variance strategy while adjusting to a new game and stakes, then this is a clear fold.

I think there's an edge to be had here, but its incredibly small.
06-08-2006, 09:23 AM
Miffed22001

insta-call against an unknown
however u got owned truly. Against a non-unknown i agree however its a clear fold to find a better place to get the money in.
06-08-2006, 12:06 PM
EricE

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

The reason Villian's line is retarded is that he has no information to pull this off. This is his 5th hand on the table. Ive folded every hand he's seen. For all he knows i'm the table nit. My raising range could be JJ-AA, AKs, AK. Now its not, but he doesn't have that info. He limps in EP hoping to get raised, he gets what he wants, he has to re-raise here. His flop push is even more retarded. He's lucky I had a loose calling range in this spot. He's only a coinflip (49.525%) against what my actual range was (AQ, AsKs, QQ, KK, AA) and way behind (13.955%) the calling range of a tighter player (AA, KK, QQ, AsKs). I still should have folded obv. but in the overall scheme of things his line is retarded.

If the table had been tight/agg then he can expect either…most to fold OR a raise to thin the field. When he gets raised PF he is afraid of AA only so its an easy call for deception knowing he has achieved isolation.

He checks the flop which allows him to see how you like your hand before he bets. He would have been owned by AA,QQ and trapped himself. Obviously he is willing to take that chance.

I don’t think it is that horrible for deception purposes. Maybe I try and get too tricky but $100 players rarely pay off full stacks if you use ABC poker.
06-08-2006, 01:04 PM
Rondavu

Why is this an instacall against an unknown? He flopped a pair of queens ace kicker. Woopdy shit. It's such a stackable hand.
06-08-2006, 01:16 PM
dwags222

i think this is a good play by villian...i've done it more than once to get called by tptk on the flop (a-q, a-10)...and of course they both got lucky so i dont really do this move very often anymore....but its only cause i'm a puss, i should do it more often when i'm sure i'll get a call
06-08-2006, 01:43 PM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwags222

i think this is a good play by villian...i've done it more than once to get called by tptk on the flop (a-q, a-10)...and of course they both got lucky so i dont really do this move very often anymore....but its only cause i'm a puss, i should do it more often when i'm sure i'll get a call

Ya, if someone is dumb enough to call off a whole stack on the flop with one vulnerable pair then have at it. No offense Lamb, but the point stands. I have done this many times, but only against someone who is losing respect.
06-08-2006, 01:56 PM
saywhat2

I am not calling here against a player I don’t know to be a madman. I doubt he make this play with KQ. So what you are hoping for, is that if you are not already beat and he is on a flush draw. And even than your 3 to 1 to lose. I don't like it.
06-09-2006, 12:40 AM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I call because the flush draw is there.

That's crazy talk.

Alot of the time this is a draw, (from a bad player).
06-09-2006, 01:40 AM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

lamb,

can you do me a favor and visit this link? thanks.

http://tinyurl.com/zdj66

nh sir
06-16-2006, 07:00 PM
novel20

If you have a good read of your opponent, knowing he could have have KQ, Q10, Q9 or anything with a Q that you can beat, then the post flop call to the reraise all-in is fine. However, most of the time you are beat when you bet pot post-flop and got reraised all-in.

What he is betting is that you don't have AA or QQ, and you are retarded enough to call off your whole stack with TPTK. And he is right.

Your call to his reraised all-in should have shocked him, because then he thought you actually had AA or QQ. Then when he saw you flipped out AQ and not even a chance to have a flush, he laughed his head off and said, "Ship it, fish!"