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Both you (SB) and unknown villain (UTG+1) have 100bb stacks. Villain raises 4bb. You have a nice hand so you raise it to 12bb and Villain calls.
Flop is: Js, Qs, 3d
Pot is 25bb and you lead for about 20bb. Villain doubles your bet and makes it 41bb to go.
What's your move for each of these starting hands:
AA
KK
AKo
JJ
Depends on the suit of those starting cards since you are including the suits of the cards on the flop
I don't think adding in runner runner flushes should be a major factor in your decisions here.Quote:
Originally Posted by AHiltz
No, but taking away an out for an opp could be.
Against an unknown.......
AA = push
KK= push
AKo = fold
JJ = call then check to see if I can induce a bet on the turn
first we should reraise more preflop
2nd suits do matter do an extent because backdoor flush outs give you an extra 4% equity. That's 8bb equity in the big pot which could potentially matter if the decision is really close. More importantly though, say you have AA WITH the card, calling might become an option since if the flush card hits, you have the nut redraw. In this specific hand with these stacks, this board, and these situations, it probably doesn't make a difference, but meh.
3rd, the situations with KK/AA are very highly read dependant so it's tough to give advice in a situation like this.
4th, you don't even say how many people are at the table but I'm just going to assume that it's FR.
what I would do vs an unknown on the 2/4 game on stars (important, because it's generally a tough game):
AA - crying push
KK - crying fold
AKo - easy fold
JJ - ridiculously easy push
QQ - same as JJ
Just go with the scenario please. 3x raise isn't ludicrous anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
If anyone wants to list a different option for a hand when they hold one spade go ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
That's why I put unknown villain - it's your second hand. It happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I play shorthanded (so 6) but if you play this different for full vs. short feel free to list it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I left QQ out since it seems like it's very easy to play here but if people want to list it, that's fine. I listed JJ because it's not the nut hand at this point and it's a hand people that may play this way preflop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
it's too smallQuote:
Just go with the scenario please. 3x raise isn't ludicrous anyway.
well it's your thread so maybe you should lay out the scenario for your readers. I already did the best I could at explaining why it could 'potentially' be important.Quote:
If anyone wants to list a different option for a hand when they hold one spade go ahead.
sorry for making it clear that there is no 'default' play in these situations like you seem to be thinking. I acknowledged that you will sometimes be playing unknowns and I gave advice accordingly.Quote:
That's why I put unknown villain - it's your second hand. It happens.
I assumed we were playing full ring. you should probably make it clear whether it's SH or FR if you make a 'hypothetical' thread like this.Quote:
I play shorthanded (so 6) but if you play this different for full vs. short feel free to list it.
you should have left out AKo and included QQQuote:
I left QQ out since it seems like it's very easy to play here but if people want to list it, that's fine. I listed JJ because it's not the nut hand at this point and it's a hand people that may play this way preflop.
I'm trying to get several responses for this specific scenario to see what most players do in this situation. I didn't anticipate a myriad of concerns, but I understand your points - I'm sorry if I initially didn't cover all the bases. That's why I tried to address each of your concerns - not trying to get in argument. I'm still not sure if Full vs. Short and having one spade will drastically affect Hero's play here specifically. However, if it does then I'm very interested in hearing how the decision changes and why. But I'd like an honest answer about Hero's next move based on you sitting at the table in this situation. Preflop already happened. Villain is still unknown. Include AK and/or QQ at your leisure. Again, I'm trying to get a consensus on what people do here.
well, as for a hand like KK, I'd be more likely to push in a short-handed game.
Perfect - care to elaborate so me and others can learn? I'm actually more interested in the shorthand version but full ring is good to know too and that's what most people on here play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Against an unknown in a shorthanded game, I think my KK is ahead of the other guy's range and there's a lot of money in the pot so I'd push thinking that play has the highest expectation of all plays available to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
push them all except AK
i think you should post this in the shorthandwed forum since most people here are full ring nits
also, I know this is a battle of unknowns, but in situations like this, your own image is often just as important, if not more important, then the other guy's. So for example, if I repop the guy from the blinds here, this is a VERY scary flop for the other guy. So when my lead gets played back at, he almost always means business.
If you are playing like a maniac, this minraise could mean something very different. Just thought I'd throw that in there as I think it's often overlooked in spots like this.
Even against the most unknowns of unknowns, I always figure the guy knows at least something about me, whether it be because they know who I am but I don't know who they are (very unlikely), to having a buddy that told him to get out of pots when Lukie reraises him (unlikely), to something as simple as watching me fold every hand for the last orbit while he was on the waiting list (likely).
I was the villain in the hand I posted in the shorthanded section and people told me my min-raise would set alarms for hero. So, I wanted to get the opinions from people who may not have seen that thread. If most people push all but AK and only some fold KK and push the rest, then I think a min-raise may be better than calling and risking a turn scare card that may kill my action. Looks like many people are willing to push over - which is what I want.
H e definately didn't know me because I have a new handle that I used for the first time that night and he just sat down.
a quick question to those who said fold KK and push AA, the value of these hands on this board are almost identical, they beat exactly the same range of hand. the only hand KK is losing to that AA is not, is AA. The other difference could be that the opponant may have more outs vs KK then vs AA (assuming you are ahead)
AA call. Lead/push turn that isnt a Q
Same with KK
JJ same.
AK fold