does villans play reveal aces immediately

***** Hand History for Game 4378843791 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, May 27, 23:30:56 ET 2006
Table Table 96334 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 5: DEECHY69 ( $8.32 )
Seat 10: RooDawg91327 ( $100.29 )
Seat 3: THEdeepDISH ( $75.35 )
Seat 4: dtconlin ( $50.07 )
Seat 2: bekrar ( $48.75 )
Seat 6: Nick_Gold ( $59.95 )
Seat 1: mengwuqian ( $46.75 )
Seat 9: sslss ( $28.15 )
Seat 7: andymam ( $49.25 )
Seat 8: xxbdubxx ( $49.50 )
THEdeepDISH posts small blind [$0.25].
dtconlin posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to THEdeepDISH [ Kc Kd ]
>You have options at Table 95780 Table!.
>You have options at Sea Dragon Table!.
Nick_Gold folds.
andymam calls [$0.50].
xxbdubxx folds.
sslss calls [$0.50].
RooDawg91327 raises [$1].
mengwuqian folds.
bekrar folds.
THEdeepDISH raises [$2.75].
dtconlin folds.
>You have options at Table 95780 Table!.
>You have options at Sea Dragon Table!.
andymam raises [$6.50].
sslss folds.
RooDawg91327 folds.
>You have options at Sea Dragon Table!.
THEdeepDISH?

I think that every time this happens to me villian has AA and it would be a huge suprise if he doesn't. I think the right play is definately to take the flop only to set hunt

Since the PF action, $ wise, is only equivalent to him raising one standard 4x BB bet, I don't think you can only put him on AA. QQ is also possible.

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Since the PF action, $ wise, is only equivalent to him raising one standard 4x BB bet, I don't think you can only put him on AA. QQ is also possible.

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There was a limp, a min raise, a reraise and then his raise after an early limp. That narrows the field of starting hands down pretty goddamn well if you ask me. That 4xBB comment doesn't hold much water.

i'd lay KK down here

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There was a limp, a min raise, a reraise and then his raise after an early limp. That narrows the field of starting hands down pretty goddamn well if you ask me. That 4xBB comment doesn't hold much water.

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If I had to put him on a hand, I'd say AA, for sure. But this is hardly the same scenario as if villain limped, there was two normal-sized raises and reraises, and then he rereraised for, like, fifteen bucks or whatever. Are you suggesting there's no correlation between the amount of money at stake and villain's possible range? Sorry, but I think QQ is (unlikely but) possible here.

any reads? this is 50NL you know. if he's a donk he could have a lot of things.

EDIT: oh didn't see it was a limp re-reraise...yeah that's probably aces.

This is sort of a preflop check/raise.. it means aces yes.

I ran into a similar situation with kings today and he flipped over A10.. lol.

Never underestimate the crap they could be playing... But without a read this looks like QQ or AA to me. It depends on your read of the player... without a read I might fold half the time here, and I might push half the time. I dont think I would just call for set value though..

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Originally Posted by Rockymv

any reads? this is 50NL you know. if he's a donk he could have a lot of things.

EDIT: oh didn't see it was a limp re-reraise...yeah that's probably aces.

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sorry i definately should have put this in he was 20/7 over about 80 hands

It's all about reads... but also all about the limp re-re-raise, smells of AA for sure but I know better than anyone that I have a never folded KK preflop. It's not just about that though, what is your table image? Are you raising a lot?

Call for set value.FOld on flop if you miss.

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Originally Posted by BankItPayette

It's all about reads... but also all about the limp re-re-raise, smells of AA for sure but I know better than anyone that I have a never folded KK preflop. It's not just about that though, what is your table image? Are you raising a lot?

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do youreally think that your table image is that neccesary at 50NL I think 90% of my opponents are playing only their cards and nothing else, I am interested to hear your thoughts on this though

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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

Call for set value.FOld on flop if you miss.

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That is probably the worst thing you can do here.

I think your initial reraise was fairly weak. However, in regards to whether or not this is always aces, its tough to say. A lot of the time you will be against aces, but Im really not sure if you are going to be against AK, QQ or anything else enough to be profitable. A lot of people will say yes and not to fold KK preflop, but a lot of the time Im AI preflop with KK its against AA so Im not sure if this is a situation I could avoid. 80 hands doesnt really mean much in terms of his raising range, it does mean he isnt a maniac though. I agree a lot with what Bankit said, table image does somewhat come into play here and your reads beyond stats also helps.

Jack, why is calling the worst thing he can do here?

My thinking would be, re-raising will probably get everyone except AA to fold, but AA will re-raise again. So, if you're ahead, the hand ends now, if you're behind, you'll proabably have to call or fold to an all-in. Villian has a full 100bb stack, so I don't want all of that in yet.

I'm not 100% convinced we're behind here, so I don't like folding.

That leaves calling. I'd consider calling with any pocket pair for set value here, that certainly includes KK.
You've got position post-flop, so my advice is to call, and play the flop. But I'm still playing below this level, so if my thinking is wrong-headed, let me know.

When I've got AA, I love it when villian can't seem to find the fold or call button.

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Originally Posted by Awaji E

Jack, why is calling the worst thing he can do here?

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Not the calling, the auto-muck if you miss part..

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My thinking would be, re-raising will probably get everyone except AA to fold, but AA will re-raise again. So, if you're ahead, the hand ends now, if you're behind, you'll proabably have to call or fold to an all-in. Villian has a full 100bb stack, so I don't want all of that in yet.

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I dunno, if you reraise now, AA is probably pushing (slight chance of a call to not give away his hand totally), and weaker hands might call.

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You've got position post-flop, so my advice is to call, and play the flop.

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That is the second option I'd consider, aside the reraise.

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($6.00)
UTG+1 ($23.80)
MP1 ($13.85)
MP2 ($32.70)
Hero ($30.40)
Button ($4.60)
SB ($15.50)
BB ($15.90)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, MP1 raises to $1.25, MP2 calls $1.25, Hero raises to $5, 3 folds, UTG+1 raises (23.05 $0.75, MP1 calls $12.60 (All-In), MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Flop: ($21.25) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($21.25) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($21.25) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $21.25

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Ac As (full house, aces full of fives).
MP1 has 8d 8h (two pair, eights and fives).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $21.25.

This hand is a bit more relevant, but I got owned this time.


PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($22.45)
MP1 ($15.35)
MP2 ($33.85)
MP3 ($17.30)
CO ($24.35)
Button ($14.85)
SB ($19.60)
Hero ($25.00)
UTG ($53.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB raises to $1.65, Hero raises to $4.25, MP2 raises (33.60 $0.25, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls $20.75 (All-In).

Flop: ($27.40) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($27.40) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($27.40) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $27.40

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
MP2 has Ac Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins $27.40.

I have been beaten so many times with my KK vs AA, i gotta start folding more often on a re-raise. BTW, limp re-raise is someting I do with absolutely nothing against a loose aggressive player who thinks he can get away with stealing blinds all day long. on 25NL So I think a read is very important here.

I still like a call of the reraise for set value.Freedy Deeb once pawned Barry Greenstein with his KK vs AA for a set-he took like a grand off Barry which is like a third of my BR.They were deep stacked too.

Even if we KNOW villian has AA, I think calling for set-value is ok. I'm more curious how to play if we don't get a set. There's still a chance we're ahead here, vs QQ, AK, or a miss-play. On the otherhand, if he does have AA and a J or Q hit on the flop, could we bluff a set? Just things I'm wondering about.

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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

I still like a call of the reraise for set value.Freedy Deeb once pawned Barry Greenstein with his KK vs AA for a set-he took like a grand off Barry which is like a third of my BR.They were deep stacked too.

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Blinds were what? Stacks were what? Preflop action was?

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Blinds were what?

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Probably the usual 10/20;not sure what stakes this was exactly.

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Stacks were what?

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Deep.Barry and Freddy easily had 200BB.

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Preflop action was?

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Freddy raised with KK;Barry reraised;Freddy called.

Flop came King high.Both got all in.

Freddy nutted his pants;Barry cried.

as to the original post, if villain pushes over a single raise, then it is more likely to be something other than AA. If villain pushes over a raise and a reraise, its most likely AA. if villain limps and then raises (but doesnt push) it's almost always AA (maybe a KK, but who wants to call and hope for KK vs KK).

that's my experience anyways. I would have a hard time laying down KK to a reraise push, but a slightly easier time to a limp reraise (non-push). although i would still probably call, but thats something i need to work on. :)

1. Don't quote an example from the professionals at high stakes when you are playing kiddie games.

2. What is that call to re-raise for set value? What value are you getting? Someone even goes further and say to call that re-raise even when you are sure your opponent got AA. You opponent got $50, and reraise to $6.5. How can you call that with KK when you are sure your opponent has AA? You only have 12% chance to flop another K, and even if that happens, you have to hope your opponent would still be going all-in after a K-high flop with his remaining $43.5. Then you are betting $6.5 to win $50, which is about 1:7.69. This is +EV since the odds of flopping a K is 1:7.33. Unfortunately, if your opponent is also sure you have KK, he is highly likely to stop betting after the K-high flop. So in reality, you are actually betting $6.5 to win $6.5, which is only 1:1. You are going to go broke in the long run.

3. At NL25 or NL50, it is probably +EV to go all in with KK when your opponent re-raise. The only reason is because the play is garbage at these levels, and there may be more than 50% chance that your opponent is not holding AA or KK, and you are actually the one with dominating hand (80%+ chance to win.) As a rough estimate , there is a total of 50% chance for you to double up (0.5*0.8 + 0.5*0.2), some chance to break even, and less than 50% chance to go broke. This will give you +EV.

4. At higher levels, read becomes more important. If you have KK and you are sure your opponent has AA, then you should fold to the re-raise. It will never be profitable in the long run to call the re-raise. Think about it as a hand that will be played 10,000 times, and not just a one time event.

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Originally Posted by theDEEPdish

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Originally Posted by BankItPayette

It's all about reads... but also all about the limp re-re-raise, smells of AA for sure but I know better than anyone that I have a never folded KK preflop. It's not just about that though, what is your table image? Are you raising a lot?

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do youreally think that your table image is that neccesary at 50NL I think 90% of my opponents are playing only their cards and nothing else, I am interested to hear your thoughts on this though

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Your table image is not necessary at 50NL, but it can be helpful and I suggest you use it to your advantage. Basically, you can have the image of bluffing a lot because you showed down a lot of crap after raising and raising and raising. When opponents play back at you, you can lay down your crap. When your opponents play back at you when you have the goods, you can drop the hammer.

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Originally Posted by Krieg1984

This hand is a bit more relevant, but I got owned this time.

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Without a read, fold to the push. He's told you all you need to know here, and youve only invested <20 bbs.

If you call here you make no money when you have AA vs everyone elses KKs.

In the original hand, yes its obv he has aces, BUT its only a minimum reraise so its totally a +ev call to hit your set.