25NL has crapped on me after I beat 10NL easily

So I recently moved to 25NL (yet again) after moving through 10NL w/o much trouble (yet again) at like 13BB/100 after ~ 13,000 hands. Well it's been about 9,000 hands at 25NL so far and I am down a little over 3 buy-ins. I've heard that after about 10,000 hands you can see if you are beating the game or not. I've basically been an aggressive nut straddler. My play hasn't changed that I am aware of. I don't go broke w/ TPTK. My biggest losing hands so far have been...

- flopped top 2 vs. straight - board of QT8 rainbow
- losing to T2 w/ my AJ (top pair w/ the A) - villain called my bets whole way and caught a 2 on the river for trips.
- losing to K7 w/ AQ - villain called w/ middle pair (7's) and caught a K on river
- middle set over top set
- getting AI w/ maniac PF w/ AQ vs. his KQ
- flopping low straight out of BB w/ 63 and losing to flopped higher straight
- calling psb's to river w/ 15 outer and having to fold
- flopping top 2 w/ T7 out of BB and losing to flopped set of 3's on rainbow board
- betting whole way w/ top 2 and losing to villain's runner runner flush
- baby flush vs. higher flush

any advice from anybody? i beat 10NL very easily and i did have some rough downswings so it's not like i had an upswing for 13,000 hands. i've tried the move to 25NL in the past and i've been greeted with this same kind of crap each time. i do not care that it is more money on the table either so i'm not playing scared and my bankroll is large enough. have i just not played enough hands? i'd appreciate any advice.

I've been currently making the retransition to NL25 myself,and at one point was anywhere up 2 buyins to down 5 buyins to up 3 buyins to back down 2 buyins through 8000 hands.I think most of your examples are ok;there's not much you can do from flopping a straight and losing to a higher flopped straight;flush losing to higher flush/set over set/and two pair losing to set are hands you basically will go broke on hand.Post some hand examples from this downswing and we can see what's up;if you feel the need to you can drop back to NL10 for a while to work back the confidence(I might just drop back to NL10 or .15/.30 for a while myself to see what's up.

martin i saw you this morning on party and tried to say hi but you were just leaving.

Watch out for Guardian_01. He is my roommate and sometimes he's me teaching my roommate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

martin i saw you this morning on party and tried to say hi but you were just leaving.

Watch out for Guardian_01. He is my roommate and sometimes he's me teaching my roommate.

---

lol i'll watch out for him/you. thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

I've been currently making the retransition to NL25 myself,and at one point was anywhere up 2 buyins to down 5 buyins to up 3 buyins to back down 2 buyins through 8000 hands.I think most of your examples are ok;there's not much you can do from flopping a straight and losing to a higher flopped straight;flush losing to higher flush/set over set/and two pair losing to set are hands you basically will go broke on hand.Post some hand examples from this downswing and we can see what's up;if you feel the need to you can drop back to NL10 for a while to work back the confidence(I might just drop back to NL10 or .15/.30 for a while myself to see what's up.

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ya i've posted several hands and it looks i've been making the correct decision usually. there are of course some mistakes but it appears i'm playing "correctly" the majority of the time. this is the reason i've made a couple posts asking people who can regularly own this level to make a video of their sessions/post an entire sessions's worth of HH's so I can compare my own play. I really would like to see beyond the usual HH comments.

looks like some crappy luck to me. If you get your money in with the best hand it isn't a fault in your play...Sometimes the fish get lucky and thats why they keep coming back. Stick it out and keep churning at $25 NL and I'm sure you will show a nice profit. I have heard of good players (a friend of mine who is up 19K playing 400 nl) dropping 7 buyins. Things happen and you just need to keep playing. As long as you have a sufficient bankroll ~10 buyins or so you'll be fine. If not drop back to $10 NL and crush 'em some more!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crushednuts

looks like some crappy luck to me. If you get your money in with the best hand it isn't a fault in your play...Sometimes the fish get lucky and thats why they keep coming back. Stick it out and keep churning at $25 NL and I'm sure you will show a nice profit. I have heard of good players (a friend of mine who is up 19K playing 400 nl) dropping 7 buyins. Things happen and you just need to keep playing. As long as you have a sufficient bankroll ~10 buyins or so you'll be fine. If not drop back to $10 NL and crush 'em some more!

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i guess the fact that downswings have occurred each time i've tried to make the move to 25NL is messing with my mind. i'm def. not giving up yet. just trying to keep my sanity.

Stay sane and off tilt! If you start tilting you may be headed back to $10 NL before you know it :D

I've never played 10NL so I can't compare. I started at 25 since that was the lowest PRoom offered.

What is your raise range when entering a pot? EP/MP I'm raising 85% 6xBB to 15% 8xBB and late position I tone it down to about 50/50 4-6xBB. My range has allowed me to take down a number of blinds pre-flop and get rid of some trash hands that would normally limp in. If I get too many callers in this range I bump it up. I found with a lower range than that I couldn't shake anybody out. After suffering a number of beats (some self-inflicted) I decided to improve my preflop play since I'd rather win some blinds immediately than lose my stack.

The other modification I've made to my game and I'm unsure at this point whether it's much of an improvement overall is to not get cute on the flop. I've stopped trying to set a trap to take a stack since I find I am ensnaring myself more often so until I get a better understanding of the subtleties of the flop I put the hammer down and am more than happy to take a $3-5 pot with a pot size bet. I'll take 4 $5 pots over 1 $20 pot at this point in my game.

Why not just post the ten hands you just listed and see what the locals think.

I like to keep my raises around 4-5x the bb and if there are alot of callers thats fine, obviously if I will add to it a little if I am up front with a vulnerable hand. I suppose it really depends on what type of raises are getting called as well and what you want to accomplish (i.e. build the pot or limit the field). Also, A rule that I like to follow is to add 1x bb to my standard raise every limper when I have a hand that is vulnerable to alot of callers. So if there are 4 limpers in front I will raise to 7x the bb. This helps limit the field and get more money committed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crushednuts

I like to keep my raises around 4-5x the bb and if there are alot of callers thats fine, obviously if I will add to it a little if I am up front with a vulnerable hand. I suppose it really depends on what type of raises are getting called as well and what you want to accomplish (i.e. build the pot or limit the field). Also, A rule that I like to follow is to add 1x bb to my standard raise every limper when I have a hand that is vulnerable to alot of callers. So if there are 4 limpers in front I will raise to 7x the bb. This helps limit the field and get more money committed.

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ya i am a follower of the +1BB per extra limper as well. i'm def. not comfy opening for like 6x-8xBB raises pre-flop though as my standard line.

Agreed. in 10c-25c I like to make it 75c or $1 on average

im running at 22 bb/100 4-tabling PP 25nl over 5000 hands (not a big sample size, only been playing for a couple days). 25 vpip/12 pfr/50% w$SD. im raising 4x bb from EP, 5x from MP, 6x from button and CO, and adding a bb per limper unless theres like 5 of them then i lower it a tad. id make a video for you but i tend to multitask a lot...i doubt you wanna read all my convos on aim

1 dollar plus .25 for each limper.

Ok, I don't know the exact numbers but I read somewhere that it is possible to get a statistical idea after 10k hands of where you are at. Something like "75% chance to be within 25% of your real winrate". Ok I made these numbers up, but it should indeed say something I think. There are probably leaks so you need to find them. I'd also be interested in seeing whole sessions from some resident sharks like you asked for in another thread, that's always so much more telling than just a few "important" hands.

10k is good but not that great.

I ran 12bb/100 for my first 10k hands of 200nl, and now I have been running like 1.5bb/100 for the last 10k and I am playing the same as I was.

this hand just happened, i usually get one of these gifts every 1-2 buyins. also i realize when i play 25nl i go all in A LOT, and i get called by worse hands like every time. they almost never lay down top pair, and will call w/ mid pair sometimes when they think you're bluffing. pretty much everytime i hit a set or a flush and face any type of resistance whatsoever im probably going all in by the end of the hand and getting called by trash.

***** Hand History for Game 4213063194 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, May 07, 23:14:58 ET 2006
Table Seaductive (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 7: jko1986 ( $25.40 )
Seat 2: ROYSTERXXX ( $16.78 )
Seat 6: This_1s_Mine ( $47.88 )
Seat 1: jarredx ( $7.44 )
Seat 9: redvw ( $24.65 )
Seat 3: ObservingOne ( $24.65 )
Seat 10: henrywoo_22 ( $9.15 )
Seat 5: oandpgator ( $10.85 )
Seat 8: tcsboards ( $24.65 )
Seat 4: stmonster ( $25 )
jarredx posts small blind [$0.10].
ROYSTERXXX posts big blind [$0.25].
stmonster posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jko1986 [ Qd Qc ]
stmonster checks.
oandpgator folds.
This_1s_Mine folds.
>You have options at No Maximum Table!.
jko1986 raises [$1.33].
tcsboards folds.
redvw folds.
henrywoo_22 folds.
jarredx folds.
ROYSTERXXX calls [$1.08].
stmonster calls [$1.08].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, 6d, 2s ]
ROYSTERXXX checks.
stmonster checks.
jko1986 bets [$3].
ROYSTERXXX calls [$3].
stmonster calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
ROYSTERXXX checks.
>You have options at No Maximum Table!.
stmonster checks.
jko1986 is all-In [$21.07]
ROYSTERXXX is all-In [$12.45]
stmonster folds.
** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
ROYSTERXXX shows [ Ac, 5d ] high card ace.
jko1986 shows [ Qd, Qc ] a pair of queens.
jko1986 wins $8.62 from side pot #1 with a pair of queens.
jko1986 wins $36.14 from the main pot with a pair of queens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

ya i am a follower of the +1BB per extra limper as well. i'm def. not comfy opening for like 6x-8xBB raises pre-flop though as my standard line.

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I wasn't that comfortable at first, but when your AQ is getting beat by K7 which is a hand a strong preflop raise should shut out and which ended up costing you much more along the way than you aren't raising enough preflop IMO.

For sake of argument you open the pot for a 6xBB raise and villian calls and the flop is A 7 2 rainbow. Now what is villian going to do when you start firing at the pot when there is an A out and all he has is a pair of 7s with a K kicker. You've made it costly for him to call preflop, he only has a pair of 7s and if he wishes to be a donk and draw out on you, you've made it much more costly.

Now say you open the pot for 4xBB. Well, there are a lot of hands at this level that will open for 4xBB and not many of them from my experience have an Ace. More likely suited/off suit broadway cards. I'm not necessarily going to put you on a high pair or an Ace with that raise and from the villians perspective the 7 might be good here.

Additionally if you are constantly getting 3+ callers you aren't raising enough. I stopped thinking in terms of, "Well, a 4xBB raise tells them I have a strong hand because that's what the books recommend." That wasn't working for me at this level and I got tired of my 4XBB raise with AA getting 5 callers and getting cracked by garbage.

UPDATE: i just won 3 buy-ins in tonight's like 25 min. session so i'm back to even for my latest try at 25NL. yay. here's the big hand (i so deserved this lol).....

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($45.50)
SB ($25)
BB ($23.40)
UTG ($7.70)
UTG+1 ($8.24)
UTG+2 ($16.99)
MP1 ($24.75)
MP2 ($28.31)
MP3 ($27.10)
CO ($29.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.

HH converter flipped with this one so i'll just tell you. 4 limpers to me and i raise to $2. utg rr all in, mp1 calls, mp2 calls, i rr all in, both mp1&2 call...

Flop: ($0.35) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (10 players)

Turn: ($0.35) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (10 players)

River: ($0.35) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (10 players)

Final Pot: $89.42

Results:
UTG has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and tens).
MP1 has Ah Jh (two pair, jacks and tens).
MP2 has Kd Ks (two pair, kings and tens).
Hero has Ac As (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $89.42.

haha nice hand

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bair

this hand just happened, i usually get one of these gifts every 1-2 buyins. also i realize when i play 25nl i go all in A LOT, and i get called by worse hands like every time. they almost never lay down top pair, and will call w/ mid pair sometimes when they think you're bluffing. pretty much everytime i hit a set or a flush and face any type of resistance whatsoever im probably going all in by the end of the hand and getting called by trash.

***** Hand History for Game 4213063194 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, May 07, 23:14:58 ET 2006
Table Seaductive (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 7: jko1986 ( $25.40 )
Seat 2: ROYSTERXXX ( $16.78 )
Seat 6: This_1s_Mine ( $47.88 )
Seat 1: jarredx ( $7.44 )
Seat 9: redvw ( $24.65 )
Seat 3: ObservingOne ( $24.65 )
Seat 10: henrywoo_22 ( $9.15 )
Seat 5: oandpgator ( $10.85 )
Seat 8: tcsboards ( $24.65 )
Seat 4: stmonster ( $25 )
jarredx posts small blind [$0.10].
ROYSTERXXX posts big blind [$0.25].
stmonster posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jko1986 [ Qd Qc ]
stmonster checks.
oandpgator folds.
This_1s_Mine folds.
>You have options at No Maximum Table!.
jko1986 raises [$1.33].
tcsboards folds.
redvw folds.
henrywoo_22 folds.
jarredx folds.
ROYSTERXXX calls [$1.08].
stmonster calls [$1.08].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, 6d, 2s ]
ROYSTERXXX checks.
stmonster checks.
jko1986 bets [$3].
ROYSTERXXX calls [$3].
stmonster calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
ROYSTERXXX checks.
>You have options at No Maximum Table!.
stmonster checks.
jko1986 is all-In [$21.07]
ROYSTERXXX is all-In [$12.45]
stmonster folds.
** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
ROYSTERXXX shows [ Ac, 5d ] high card ace.
jko1986 shows [ Qd, Qc ] a pair of queens.
jko1986 wins $8.62 from side pot #1 with a pair of queens.
jko1986 wins $36.14 from the main pot with a pair of queens.

---

i was starting to wonder if i should begin doing this kind of stuff. i'm not so sure yet. i mean you are "supposed" to be allowing villain to play perfect poker when you make those kinds of overbets but i guess maybe this doesn't apply at 25NL? i just don't know yet. nh. hope i start finding those guys as often as you seem to.

haha So great that they both had KK. Pretty much drawing dead cept for 4 card straights and flushes.

it seems to me at 25nl overbets make the villain play the opposite of perfect poker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bair

it seems to me at 25nl overbets make the villain play the opposite of perfect poker

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haha that's a good line. i'll have to keep it in mind next time then.

Quote:

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it seems to me at 25nl overbets make the villain play the opposite of perfect poker

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For A5os villain drawing to gutshot for stack is somewhat "puurfecct" poker ;)

I can't remember how many stacks I took (some were lost) by dropping the hammer with overpair and getting a lot of crazy calls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

1 dollar plus .25 for each limper.

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i agree with renton
come into the hand strong at 25nl
$1.5 to $2 is my norm, when i don't limp and i don't limp much
don't just do this with big hands (aa,kk or ak), and pay close attention to position and reraises

the table will fold the first few times you do this but after awhile they will start to gamble with you

0.75 to 1 doesn't get all the respect it should
rememeber the players at 25nl are mostly terrible

Hey, I play 25NL... Hang on, no, you're right!

This thread has really made me question my betting habits pre-flop. But... My experience has been that a 4-5xBB raise pre-flop will chase out most peopel. That said, my 25NL PFR stats are low enough that most of the people on the table will twig I have something when I raise and therefore fold all their limped hands.

That does mean that I get a better idea of who's got a genuine hand, but it also means I get suckered more when the raise I've made is not enough to chase out the real dross which then gets lucky on the flop.

Very good advice though.

J

Compromise - $1.5-$2 will only get calls on the most aggro tables, and you'll be getting dominated hands (the ones that will pay your premium hands off) to fold too often. I am tending to $1-$1.25 (all other things being equal) when I want isolation - that's about 50k hands worth of $25 and £25 play.

j
if you are reading this forum and/or one of the other top poker forums, poker books, or have a metric sh*t ton of hands under your belt, then you are way ahead of 75% of the 25NL players

Quote:

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I've basically been an aggressive nut straddler.

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open your game up a little bit?

Your nutstraddling positions should be 1st-6th. On the button, cutoff, and hijack, play lagg as fuck. You'd be surprised how much more your AA/KK/xxx will make if you play this way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

Your nutstraddling positions should be 1st-6th. On the button, cutoff, and hijack, play lagg as fuck. You'd be surprised how much more your AA/KK/xxx will make if you play this way.

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11-handed games as fun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

Your nutstraddling positions should be 1st-6th. On the button, cutoff, and hijack, play lagg as fuck. You'd be surprised how much more your AA/KK/xxx will make if you play this way.

---

11-handed games as fun

---

rofl

Blinds = 1st and 2nd position. I am a doofus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

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I've basically been an aggressive nut straddler.

---

open your game up a little bit?

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is this at all necessary at 25NL? i always hear "just camp at 25NL and everything will be alright." are things changing?

i have been playing 25nl a lot lately (teaching my apprentice), and the game seems a lot tougher than it was a few months ago. There seems to be considerably more folding equity as well.

I just moved up to 50 nl and i think there are way more donks there that will call you down with bottom pair and they are a real problem for me. until i just adjusted, but in 25 nl I could play lag-maniac and make 12+bb/100

25 NL isn't a soft-ground campsite like it used to be. I made a fortune playing 25 until a year/year-and-a-half ago, when I moved up to 50 (and later to 100). Then I withdrew a lot of money, switched to SnG's for a while, suffered a downswing, and ended up with a small bankroll and a pretty thorough dislike of both SnG's and MTT's. I came back into cash games through 25 NL and found it to be a pretty different game than it used to be. Not as many donks and maniacs, not as much paying off with garbage hands. It's still a *very* beatable game, but you have to adjust your tactics and not just assume that waiting around for aces and sets will get you by. A certain amount of controlled aggression will get all the mediocre players riled up, and they'll dump chips on you if you let them.

well after being really honest w/ myself i found that i've been playing too timid. i don't know if i was playing scared or what but i've since adjusted and now i feel i am playing the same as i was. i appreciate all the advice everybody.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crushednuts

Agreed. in 10c-25c I like to make it 75c or $1 on average

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This is not enough to make people fold. Try making it at 1.50 to get some real folding equity.

It's nice for a BR baby like me to hear that $25NL isn't a complete fishpool :)

Renton's miscalculation of positions has reminded me that in my PT stats I have ONE instance of 8th position - so I must have played 1 hand of 11-handed poker. Anyone got a potential explanation?

Yes, you're imagining things!

Flomo, Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I seem to have either a very slow learning curve at the moment (never used to before) or I am being super-dense at actually learning things related to poker.

I read stuff (HoH 1 & 2), this site and others, I play poker when I can and have just started playing at work with some decent players, but when I go on-line, it all goes to rat-shit.

I started on STTs, moved to ring (25NL) and have now moved down to 10NL just to stop me donking my stack on a bloody stupid hand. But, 10NL is just way too... Don't know, but it feels so wrong. It's like the play money tables - i.e. no one takes it seriously. I just need to ruin the tables there before moving back to sensible-land.

J

UPDATE: After taking some brutal beats yesterday this lovely gem showed up this morning for my 1st hand of the session.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($17.45)
Hero ($25)
Button ($25.15)
SB ($20.23)
BB ($29.23)
UTG ($13.10)
UTG+1 ($24.40)
MP1 ($9.01)
MP2 ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (5 players)
SB bets $0.25, BB calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75.

Turn: ($5) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1, MP1 calls $1, Hero raises to $5, SB folds, BB calls $4, MP1 calls $6.76 (All-In), Hero calls $2.76, BB calls $2.76.

River: ($28.28) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
BB checks, Hero calls $15.99 (All-In), BB calls $15.99.

Final Pot: $60.26

Results:
BB has 4d 9s (three of a kind, nines).
MP1 has Ad 7d (one pair, nines).
Hero has 2d 4c (straight, six high).
Outcome: Hero wins $60.26.

AHAHAHAHAHA

I'd raise more on the flop - but nh, sir.

OK well i'm up 3 buy-ins today after about an hour of play so it looks like things are finally starting to even out. hurrah hurrah.

Read the NL section of Super Sytem 1 or 2. Play tight. Don't waiste your time with hands like A10 Kj ect... You are much better off playing a hnd like 78s from the button with 1 or 2 callers than KJos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saywhat2

Read the NL section of Super Sytem 1 or 2. Play tight. Don't waiste your time with hands like A10 Kj ect... You are much better off playing a hnd like 78s from the button with 1 or 2 callers than KJos.

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oh i've read it alright. and i understand not playing trash like AT and such OOP. i'm starting to get the impression that i've had very bad luck for a little while which was combined with me playing a bit too scared.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

martin i saw you this morning on party and tried to say hi but you were just leaving.

Watch out for Guardian_01. He is my roommate and sometimes he's me teaching my roommate.

---

LMAO - LOL.. Yeah dudes thanks for the heads up after you probably stacked the poor guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by "martindcx1e

i'm starting to get the impression that i've had very bad luck for a little while which was combined with me playing a bit too scared.

---

I think the second part of this statement may be the key for you (and me). My PT probably looks a lot like yours. I beat the crap out of NL10 up to a BR of 500 with little problem. 18BB/100. I must have ran well over that because I'm not that good. However, after about 12K hands at NL 25, I'm only up 2 buy-ins. My stats are reasonably similar to what they were before, 18/6. I have tightened up as the games have, but mostly it's aggression. At NL25 passive play is punished much more. There are lots of players who are just looking for NITs like us to pound. Waiting for me to CBet to come over the top when I have two overs. Probably Renton, teaching his roomy to play. For me, I'm tightening up the small things, like not pounding everyone out of the pot when I want some action. I agree with Renton that you don't need to go pot. I win too many small pots.

That said, mostly I think its aggression. More specifically, earlier aggression. 3 bet more Preflop. Check raise more on the flop. Raise the flop more against the right opponent. I've been able to be fairly robotic or lazy at NL10. Playing the cards and not the larger game and players. I don't think that works anymore at NL25 and definitely won't at anywhere I want to be later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vegascoop

I think the second part of this statement may be the key for you (and me). My PT probably looks a lot like yours. I beat the crap out of NL10 up to a BR of 500 with little problem. 18BB/100. I must have ran well over that because I'm not that good. However, after about 12K hands at NL 25, I'm only up 2 buy-ins. My stats are reasonably similar to what they were before, 18/6. I have tightened up as the games have, but mostly it's aggression. At NL25 passive play is punished much more. There are lots of players who are just looking for NITs like us to pound. Waiting for me to CBet to come over the top when I have two overs. Probably Renton, teaching his roomy to play. For me, I'm tightening up the small things, like not pounding everyone out of the pot when I want some action. I agree with Renton that you don't need to go pot. I win too many small pots.

That said, mostly I think its aggression. More specifically, earlier aggression. 3 bet more Preflop. Check raise more on the flop. Raise the flop more against the right opponent. I've been able to be fairly robotic or lazy at NL10. Playing the cards and not the larger game and players. I don't think that works anymore at NL25 and definitely won't at anywhere I want to be later.

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ya i found that i wasn't being as aggressive in position as i was when i was soundly beating 10NL, and i think i was being a bit too aggressive with my AA/KK. 25NL players are actually a little smarter than the 10NL crowd and don't seem to enjoy calling 8-10BB pre-flop raises as often lol.

Sometimes you have a monster of a flop and it just so happens that someone else flopped a better monster. It's really hard, if not impossible, to get away from flopped straights on rainbow boards.

Don't mind moving down to 10NL from time to time either. I do the same (100nl - 25nl). I may loose 10 buy-ins on one level, and just to get my confidence back again I'll drop a level or two.