interesting play, whats going on?

Recently i've been seeing this happen alot, though i've never once seen a show down in this situation. I havent been getting involved in it myself, as it would be a mindlessly calling down play on my part, which would be stupid.. I am interested though as to what hands are likely to be doing this and whether it would be worth my while to try and out play these guys. Or atleast know where i stand when i see this.

Preflop may be raised or unraised, i dont yet know whether it makes a difference.

flop:
player 1 bets minimum
player 2 calls

turn:
player 1 bet min
player 2 calls

river:
player 1 bets pot
player 2 folds

i havent noticed any position relevence, so this could happen the same way with a check/bet/call type pattern.

Player 2 probably has a missed draw and didnt really do anything stupid, and player 1 is really quite stupid, but i have no idea what he has. Is this a fishy way to play TPTK or TPGK.. or is it a stronger hand trying to draw out some chips.. or just nothing.. (probably some player dependence here but thats always there) either way i'm probably not going to get overly involved in a hand that is going this way, at least not seeing it to the river. But i do have an interest in all types of plays, whether or not i'm going to get involved with it.

i'd like to hear from anyone, regardless of your expeirience level.. let me know what you've seen

cheers
bigandrich

Alot of players at the lower limits like to bet their bottom/middle pair hands in this way. Like if they see a flop w/ Q9 offsuit and the flop is J 9 2 they will bet the minimum. I don't know if it is to see where they are at or what but they will continue to bet unless they get raised. The other player is probably on a draw like QT in the case above, or maybe bottom pair (saw a flop w/ A2o and is looking to improve w/ an ace) and then the player 1 will be the pot on the river because he either improved or thinks his hand is good. Most of the times the players at the lower limits just bet the value of their hand i.e. if its good they bet the pot and if its bad they bet a little bit or check.

Also, don't try and raise these guys out of pots! Most of them will try and call you down with very weak hands, assuming you are on the draw or something. Trying to "outplay" them is dangerous. Just wait until you flop a set or hit the nuts and then punish them.

It is usually either of two things:
- player 1 has a great made hand, and hopes to get his opponent to raise him.. since this hasn't happened by the river, he still wants to cash in and bets big.
- player 1 has a decent hand like TP, but is scared of something, like a draw. So he bets small b/c he is too afraid to bet big b/c of the possible draw or something. But by the river, his scare card hasn't shown up, so he feels safe that his hand is best and bets big. (could also be MP when he is scared of TP.. by the river his opp hasn't raised him so he thinks he is good)

In an unraised pot this could be anything. I say that because the pot is not going to be very big at the river and a PS bet there doesn’t mean much. It could be any split pair or PP that decided he was gtg and as such bet the pot on the river hoping for a call. It could be a complete bluff and bet big on the river to force a fold and pickup the small pot. Basicaly, do what your gut feel tells you to with these pots because they are small.

In a raised pot this could still be anything but some situations stand out. Like if the flop is KK4. The min bet here usually means they have a K and a reraise will reveal it (but make everyone else fold). You would be surprised how often this works in a multi way pot. Like 4/5 players see the flop of KK4 and one min bets…everyone will call. If they really put the person on a K they would know they are too far behind to call. If I have something here I’ll reraise and if I have a good draw that can beat his trips I’ll call. In any case, the pot size bet on the river means he has something pretty nice and wants some value out of it.

I Always raise with any two cards when someone min bets and most of the time they fold. They usually caught a small piece of the board or is on a draw and wants to see the next card cheap. Drop the hammer and price them out of the hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lodogg

I Always raise with any two cards when someone min bets and most of the time they fold.

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My take is that unless it's an unraised pot, you should often raise, sometimes call and rarely fold the most hopeless of hands.

In a hand I just played (HU at the flop), I had SC and hit mid-pair on the flop w/two hearts. Guy min-bets, I raise it to the pot, he calls. Turn's a blank, and confident that I have the best hand, I 3/4 pot it, he calls. River's a double scare card (Ah). He donk min-bets into me. Not having a great hand, I just call. He turns over nothing (a busted straight-draw which appeared on the turn). Needless to say, I was very confused by his play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stuck

Needless to say, I was very confused by his play.

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I'm not.

True story.

Live NLHE game, $1bb, $20 stacks. Side game at a software conference, only one other guy at the table plays much poker.

Just about the entire table limps and I play K4 spades from the cut-off.

Flops is Q84 with a spade.
$1 bet from either EP or the blinds, everyone calls.

Turn is a spade.
$1 bet, some calls, I raise to $7, folded to bettor who calls.

River is a blank.
Check and I push. She folds QJo face up.

There is very particular psychology at work here...

A lot of people, especially at the lower limits, play so very random. If your read is good, you can exploit them to no end.. but if your read is wrong, you can blow a lot of money quickly too, even if you're the "better" poker player.

Like if you just got busted by calling a smallstack guy pushing a made hand on your TPTK.. and thereafter you "learn your lesson" and fold to everyone's stupid bluffs and bet into their awkward slowplays etc..

It's pretty common to see people make a tiny bet on the flop or the turn, and if you just call it, they think you're weak and make a big bet on the river to take the pot away. Just calling these weak bets can be a good way to induce a river bluff. If I'm Player 2 in Hand 1, I call with a pretty decent range of hands (although I probably would have raised the flop with most of those hands).

Example: I'd seen this guy float 3 or 4 times already with ace high, and my HUD said he'd "folded to flop bet" something like 4 out of 15 times. When he made his little $10 bet on the turn, I gave him zero credit for a hand, so I called planning to call another bet on the river if it was a blank. Thanks for the stack!

POKERSTARS GAME #4855231712: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/05/06 - 22:25:45 (ET)
Table 'Astyanax III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: snapper10k ($126.80 in chips)
Seat 2: pinocchio2 ($428.80 in chips)
Seat 3: mcatdog ($200 in chips)
Seat 4: Smut Mut ($118.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Pryderi ($196 in chips)
Seat 6: nicenick ($80 in chips)
Pryderi: posts small blind $1
nicenick: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Jd Jh]
snapper10k: folds
pinocchio2: folds
mcatdog: raises $6 to $8
Smut Mut: calls $8
Pryderi: calls $7
nicenick: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3s 4h]
Pryderi: checks
nicenick: checks
mcatdog: bets $20
Smut Mut: calls $20
Pryderi: folds
nicenick: folds
*** TURN *** [Kd 3s 4h] [2s]
mcatdog: checks
Smut Mut: bets $10
mcatdog: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [Kd 3s 4h 2s] [7h]
mcatdog: checks
Smut Mut: bets $80.90 and is all-in
mcatdog: calls $80.90
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Smut Mut: shows [2d Ah] (a pair of Deuces)
mcatdog: shows [Jd Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
mcatdog collected $250.80 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $253.80 | Rake $3
Board [Kd 3s 4h 2s 7h]
Seat 1: snapper10k folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: pinocchio2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mcatdog showed [Jd Jh] and won ($250.80) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 4: Smut Mut (button) showed [2d Ah] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 5: Pryderi (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: nicenick (big blind) folded on the Flop