QQ push preflop: Good or Bad?

Just call and hope to spike a queen or push and try to take down 15bb (or get a loose caller). I'm confident that I dominate everyone but possibly the initial raiser as they all just called.

**** Hand History for Game 4146684482 *****
0/0 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Sun Apr 30 21:47:26 EDT 2006
Table Table 106638 (No DP) (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: rubosworld ( $337.06)
Seat 2: mAd_GiLlz ( $471.70)
Seat 3: kaners ( $108.75)
Seat 4: jandje ( $200)
Seat 5: reddyfin ( $134.55)
Seat 6: fpdog ( $85.42)
kaners posts small blind (1)
jandje posts big blind (2)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jandje [ Qh, Qc ]
reddyfin calls (2)
fpdog calls (2)
rubosworld raises (9) to 9
mAd_GiLlz calls (9)
kaners calls (8)
jandje raises (198) to 200

i would just raise to 45ish

Only hands that call a ridiculous overbet like that are AA/KK and *maybe* AK. You'll either be dominated or a coinflip in those two cases.

I like Gabe's idea of raising. I think $45 may be a little too steep, though, considering that it's almost 1/4 of your stack. Technically you'd be getting okay odds to call any push if someone were to do that to you.

I like raising it to about $35-40 here.

Calling is another option but you'd most likely have to dump it on the flop without hitting a set. There will most likely be overs and/or someone else hitting a huge hand that beats QQ.

Also, you mentioned "pushing to take down a 15bb pot..."

Risking 200 to win 15 isn't the thing I want to do very often. Granted, you may get a loose call from TT/JJ or something, who knows....but I think most of the time anyone that calls here will have AA/KK/AK.

Hope it worked out well.

At this table hands like AQ/AJ/JJ/TT and possibly less may call. I think if I raise and one guy calls, others may follow and unless I hit a queen I'm going to have trouble. Say the flop is all unders w/ draws and somebody pushes to steal the big pot - I'm hosed even with a read. So far nobody has folded up until my bet. The initial guy raises lots of crap and the table theme is to raise up bigger hands to cut down on callers - so AA/KK are unlikely. Nobody did that. If I'm up against AK, I'm on the right side of the coinflip and it's very possible a couple of their outs are held by other players.

With that said - does that change your opinion? I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Nope, my opinion doesn't change.

If that's your read, though, why not go with it? Sometimes a huge push like yours could scream 88 or 99 and all you're trying to do is steal, so maybe you'll get a loose call from JJ/TT/AQ or something. It may have worked out this time, on this particular table....but most of the time the only players that will call you have you dominated or coin-flipping.

Also, I'm not a big fan of the QQ vs. AK all-in preflop with stacks this deep. I know you're a slight favorite to win, but it's just not something I want to do against another big stack on a regular basis.

I almost never push or call pushes preflop w/ QQ. I did a couple weeks ago vs. a shortstack that kept doing it and beat his QT somehow.

I like calling and looking to set as an alternative next time. Not much invested but could be a huge pot taken down as these guys were overplaying top pair.

Thanks for the advice.

the best thing to do is raise to 40-50. theres alot of dead money in the pot and you are playing against bad players, so build the pot while you know you are ahead. calling is probably more +EV than pushing, but not more +EV than just raising.

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Originally Posted by gabe

i would just raise to 45ish

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Def.

This hand, no matter what you do, is a serious waste of QQ. You could take down this 15bb pot with 72o if the original raiser has a PFR% >12% (a play which I make often).

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Originally Posted by r8ed

I like calling and looking to set as an alternative next time. Not much invested but could be a huge pot taken down as these guys were overplaying top pair.

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QQ is not a hand to play for set value. I do the same thing as gabe/renton/george.

if you're pushing more frequently preflop at this table than you would normally do, then this might be ok. it makes the bluff/semibluff pushes look more respectable in the future. so unless you're setting up future pushes, or have already done that and are looking to possibly cash in here on that table image, then i go with the overbet raise line.

since you mention that you're thinking that a single caller could result in a domino effect call around, i would tend to overbet higher than normal here. normally if i thought a reraise was going to get a fold around/single caller, i'd say around $35-40, but you might need to pump it a little more so you don't end up w/ 5way action flop w/ pot size of $150-175, so i'd end up probably making it closer to $50 at the $1/2 level.

I like cold calling in this position call me a pussy.

PUSSY

http://www.fugazi.co.uk/Westfield/images/pussy.JPG

You make yourself pretty easy to play against if you're only re-raising KK and AA. I love when that type of player re-raises me, I fold, and he shows me his aces just to confirm that I have him read like a book.

Calling is pretty much terrible, as now you will be playing QQ OOP against 3 players, not to mention the other two limpers who will certainly call as well, meaning that you are playing this pot 6 way. Reraise here to whatever amount you think gets the pot HU or takes it down preflop other than a push. 40-50 sounds about right. Open pushing is bad too wish stacks this deep unless you knew there was a donkey waiting to call you with TT.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

http://www.fugazi.co.uk/Westfield/images/pussy.JPG

You make yourself pretty easy to play against if you're only re-raising KK and AA. I love when that type of player re-raises me, I fold, and he shows me his aces just to confirm that I have him read like a book.

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When you have a specific read that someone has AA, and you know they won't lay it down no way no how, you should pretty much call with any two suckoutable cards. I stack 2-3 tightpassives every day using this technique.

yea, the ones who only reraise AA/KK are usually the ones who just minreraise it anyway

I really dont like to play queens this aggresive and I must be one of the most LAG player ever :) what I can se it is 2 opportunitys either call and se the flop , you have position in the hand and can easily make a good dissicion in the hand. Or re-raise to 30-45, what I can se now the only hands that call you are AA/KK, really loose players maybe call with AK/JJ. So 2 hands has you dominated, 1 is a coinflip and 1 you have him dominated (against good players ofc).
So I relly dont think this is a EV play if the players at the table isnt super-tilted and call you with 22-TT, Ax or s/c.

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Originally Posted by XoteR

I really dont like to play queens this aggresive and I must be one of the most LAG player ever :)

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this must be a joke. how can you be most LAG ever and not reraise QQ with only 6 people at the table?

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Originally Posted by gabe

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Originally Posted by XoteR

I really dont like to play queens this aggresive and I must be one of the most LAG player ever :)

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this must be a joke. how can you be most LAG ever and not reraise QQ with only 6 people at the table?

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I would re-rasie 9/10 but not 100BB for 15BB. And the only reason I would call if there is a relly tight player that did raise.

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Originally Posted by XoteR

Or re-raise to 30-45, what I can se now the only hands that call you are AA/KK, really loose players maybe call with AK/JJ. So 2 hands has you dominated, 1 is a coinflip and 1 you have him dominated (against good players ofc).
So I relly dont think this is a EV play if the players at the table isnt super-tilted and call you with 22-TT, Ax or s/c.

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You are seriously overestimating your opponents if you believe this. The average players at 200nl thinks that AJ is the NUTZ. They will reraise with it, in or out of position, and they will call reraises with it all day. Also, and this is what I was saying about this being a waste of QQ, you will most likely take down a very sizable pot here w/o a fight if you reraise. You will make much more money this way than the times where run into AA/KK and hafta fold the flop.

Also, you and a lot of others seem to be so afraid of a coinflip. A coinflip is, in most cases, a WONDERFUL result. In this case its particularly wonderful because of the shitload of dead money. Also, QQ has huge implied odds vs AK, whereas it doesn't work vice versa. AKQ flop and ure stackin.

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Originally Posted by XoteR

I really dont like to play queens this aggresive and I must be one of the most LAG player ever :) what I can se it is 2 opportunitys either call and se the flop , you have position in the hand and can easily make a good dissicion in the hand. Or re-raise to 30-45, what I can se now the only hands that call you are AA/KK, really loose players maybe call with AK/JJ. So 2 hands has you dominated, 1 is a coinflip and 1 you have him dominated (against good players ofc).
So I relly dont think this is a EV play if the players at the table isnt super-tilted and call you with 22-TT, Ax or s/c.

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We are second to act postflop with (likely) 6 players seeing the flop, how do we have position?

I also would reraise TT+, AQ+ here as well, these hands play best when A) You are the aggressor and B) When the pot is HU or three way. If you aren't reraising QQ preflop other than to be deceptive then this is a serious leak in your game. I believe at a 6 handed table one time of 22 you will see a bigger pair when you have QQ. In fact, I advise you to take a deck of cards and start dealing hands out (6 handed) and you will see how often nobody has anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Renton

When you have a specific read that someone has AA, and you know they won't lay it down no way no how, you should pretty much call with any two suckoutable cards. I stack 2-3 tightpassives every day using this technique.

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So do I, but that only works if they have a full buyin at the table, or if they min-reraise you. I'm talking about the guys who when I raise to $4 and they make it $12, leaving only $40 behind them.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by Renton

When you have a specific read that someone has AA, and you know they won't lay it down no way no how, you should pretty much call with any two suckoutable cards. I stack 2-3 tightpassives every day using this technique.

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So do I, but that only works if they have a full buyin at the table. If I raise to $4 and they make it $12, leaving only $40 behind them, I'm not calling.

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OBV :D

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by XoteR

Or re-raise to 30-45, what I can se now the only hands that call you are AA/KK, really loose players maybe call with AK/JJ. So 2 hands has you dominated, 1 is a coinflip and 1 you have him dominated (against good players ofc).
So I relly dont think this is a EV play if the players at the table isnt super-tilted and call you with 22-TT, Ax or s/c.

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You are seriously overestimating your opponents if you believe this. The average players at 200nl thinks that AJ is the NUTZ. They will reraise with it, in or out of position, and they will call reraises with it all day. Also, and this is what I was saying about this being a waste of QQ, you will most likely take down a very sizable pot here w/o a fight if you reraise. You will make much more money this way than the times where run into AA/KK and hafta fold the flop.

Also, you and a lot of others seem to be so afraid of a coinflip. A coinflip is, in most cases, a WONDERFUL result. In this case its particularly wonderful because of the shitload of dead money. Also, QQ has huge implied odds vs AK, whereas it doesn't work vice versa. AKQ flop and ure stackin.

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I can't tell which play you side with as the best, but I just wanted to clear up that a coinflip is not a wonderful result, its the best result you can hope for. Most of the time you're up against AA or KK when called here and the dead money + coinflips doesn't make up for it over the long run.

Reraise preflop, but don't push.

Raise to 35-40, this is a very profitable situation. As Renton mentioned, it's probably even +EV with 72o, a typical raiser and/or a decent image.

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Originally Posted by aislephive

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Originally Posted by XoteR

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Really dont know how I could se we had position, when I wrote it I was 100% sure that we had the button. In this position we have to re-rasie to 35-45


Renton wrote:

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You are seriously overestimating your opponents if you believe this. The average players at 200nl thinks that AJ is the NUTZ. They will reraise with it, in or out of position, and they will call reraises with it all day. Also, and this is what I was saying about this being a waste of QQ, you will most likely take down a very sizable pot here w/o a fight if you reraise. You will make much more money this way than the times where run into AA/KK and hafta fold the flop.

Also, you and a lot of others seem to be so afraid of a coinflip. A coinflip is, in most cases, a WONDERFUL result. In this case its particularly wonderful because of the shitload of dead money. Also, QQ has huge implied odds vs AK, whereas it doesn't work vice versa. AKQ flop and ure stackin.

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I did formulate the text really bad, I did mean that if we pusch we probably only will get called by AA/KK/AK/JJ/QQ agaianst a normal player, tilted/really bad players will call a all in with AJ/AQ 22-TT maybe less. But I still dont think is +EV to buy a pot with 12BB for 100BB

seems like a pretty easy reraise.. calling OOP multiway is just bad. Pushing with such a massive overbet is just bad. Unless the original raiser was just some phenominal rock, I jack this baby up to close to $50...

for what its worth, if i knew i could get allin with a perfect 50/50 coinflip with another person with 100bb, i would do it just for the chance of having a 200bb stack