Do you think Bonus chasing hinders your poker improvement?

I know bonus chasing is good for building a nice bankroll and there's nothing wrong at all with that. That's all I'm doing right now is bonus chasing. But do you think it hinders your poker improvement? I tend to play very very tight all the time just trying to play break even so I can clear the whole bonus. Sometimes I'm break even or slightly above or slightly below when chasing a bonus. But as far as my poker goes, I'm not very aggressive at all, I tend to just nut camp and play a very restricted number of opening hands. If I look at my PT stats, my VP$P is a whopping 13.75, and PF raise % is 1.58, with my amount won sitting at 13.56 over 10,000 hands since I got PT about a month and a half ago. Now this winning % doesnt include the bonus money I've won which has been a few thousand plus since mid Dec.

So my poll question. Do you think bonus chasing hinders your poker improvement? In my situation the answer is Yes, But no way I stop chasing bonuses.

edit: I think I should have put "But no way I stop chasing bonuses at end of the Maybe tag also.

I'm usually playing for a bonus, but I try to think of it as more of a cushion against variance than just a bonus per se. That way, I play normally and get more out of it learning-wise. Granted, some times I clear a bonus and have lost money, but I think that's balanced out by the times I've cleared a bonus + another few hundred.

Personally, I'd want to commit suicide after several hundred hands of 13/1.5.

Why would anyone want to play suboptimal poker just because they are clearing a bonus? I see bonuses as a way to negate the rake.

Yeah, play your normal game, and take the bonus as a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Iwind

Yeah, play your normal game, and take the bonus as a bonus.

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Perfectly said

i understand what your trying to ask here, but that in itself is fundamentally weak i feel.

yes when you play on a lot of sites breaking even over 15k hands gets you a big fat bonus. So you dont want to be risking going broke on a site. However i dont think that is a case that should really ever happen. Just play a normal game. If you end up donking off some stacks big deal it happens. However, if you find your getting outplayed then yah, maybe a super tight approach and break even play makes sense because their is a longterm goal.

However, remember why we are building the roll form bonuses, we want to play high limit poker dont we?

Rabid Dog, if we're talking about YOU here then yes, I think bonus chasing is having a negative impact on your game. 1.6% PFR!! That's crazy, way sub-optimal - you must be limping hands like AQ and JJ!

I think you need to take a long hard look at your game and decide on your priorities. I can understand why you might want to build your BR in the safest way before taking things seriously, but really, do you not feel you know enough about poker to be able to actually PLAY the game a bit rather than super-camp?

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Originally Posted by biondino

Rabid Dog, if we're talking about YOU here then yes, I think bonus chasing is having a negative impact on your game. 1.6% PFR!! That's crazy, way sub-optimal - you must be limping hands like AQ and JJ!

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Yes I am. I dont know when my mindset changed to this. But for some reason it seems that all I do now is limp these hands now and sometimes better hands than you listed also. Over the last few months, besides my wifes income, this has been my only income while job hunting. Maybe thats the whole deal. We pull around 800-1000 a month out of my bankroll on average, depending on what we want to do. This keeps me sitting at an even 1500 in bankroll. But that doesnt bother me because Im still contributing around 1000 a month to the family bankroll. We dont really need that much, but it lets the wifey keep some of her paycheck so she doesnt feel thats all we're living off of. So I'm not doing bad bonus hunting, the money has been good. But Im not improving any either because I seem to have gotten too conservative in order to clear a bonus.

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I think you need to take a long hard look at your game and decide on your priorities.

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Maybe this is it right here. I do use my bankroll to help with bills and groceries and rent each month. This could be the exact reason why I've lost aggression and started trying to just break even to clear a bonus. The bonus is almost guaranteed money and all I have to do to get that 100 or 200 or so is play break even poker which isnt hard at all.

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but really, do you not feel you know enough about poker to be able to actually PLAY the game a bit rather than super-camp?

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Absolutely. And I was playing better before I took up bonus whoring. Thats why I possed the question and poll. But now after reading these replies and especially your reply, I'm thinking its not actually the bonus whoring thats changed my mindset. Its the fact that I'm using the 800-1000 a month of my bankroll to help with bills and groceries and rent. I think this has made me get so conservative that all I'm thinking about is breaking even on poker to clear the whole bonus. Who cares what my winrate is, its the bottom dollar that counts. I need to change this and get back to trying to win and improving my game, while clearing these bonuses. Otherwise when or if these bonuses dry up, my games going to be in a world of hurt.

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Originally Posted by biondino

Rabid Dog, if we're talking about YOU here then yes, I think bonus chasing is having a negative impact on your game. 1.6% PFR!! That's crazy, way sub-optimal - you must be limping hands like AQ and JJ!

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A 1.5% PFR means exactly AA KK and QQ. Anyone with a HUD will have an awesome read on him.

Here are my PFR% totals

AA..92%
AKs..23%
AKo..8%

KK..60%
KQs..8%
KQo..1%

QQ..42%
JJ..20%
TT20%

99 and below is 8% or less.

Bonus hunting makes you have to play different sites, which in turn makes you have to play different poker. At some sites with terrible players, 13/1.5 may be optimal (although that would only be if they're overaggressive). I think30/3 or something like that would be better against terrible players. Against typical players something like 18/6 is probably good. But don't focus on the numbers, just play good poker! (which is different at every table)

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Here are my PFR% totals

AA..92%
AKs..23%
AKo..8%

KK..60%
KQs..8%
KQo..1%

QQ..42%
JJ..20%
TT20%

99 and below is 8% or less.

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Those are some wacky numbers, Dog. You're only raising AKs 1/4 of the time?

I understand where you're coming from--I work part time and make a portion of my income from poker. But IMO you're leaving wads of money on the table playing this way. First of all, you're probably not getting paid off on your good hands since you're only raising, like, once an hour. Secondly, you're not picking up any dead money, ever, and low limit NLHE is all about picking up dead money.

But you already know all this. Just open it up some, fer chrissake!

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Originally Posted by donnybaker

I think30/3 or something like that would be better against terrible players. Against typical players something like 18/6 is probably good. But don't focus on the numbers, just play good poker! (which is different at every table)

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Ok, just sat down and concentrated on raising where I should and all. For a one hour session of 252 hands I ran 17/6.5 So thats better. Also came out ahead during that one hour. Not alot, but Im more trying to improve my aggression than worry about the dollar amount right now.

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

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Here are my PFR% totals

AA..92%
AKs..23%
AKo..8%

KK..60%
KQs..8%
KQo..1%

QQ..42%
JJ..20%
TT20%

99 and below is 8% or less.

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Those are some wacky numbers, Dog. You're only raising AKs 1/4 of the time?

I understand where you're coming from--I work part time and make a portion of my income from poker. But IMO you're leaving wads of money on the table playing this way. First of all, you're probably not getting paid off on your good hands since you're only raising, like, once an hour. Secondly, you're not picking up any dead money, ever, and low limit NLHE is all about picking up dead money.

But you already know all this. Just open it up some, fer chrissake!

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Totally agree with the loss of dead money and leaving money on the table and the need to open it up. I really need to get back to that.

Funny thing is about the income part. Wife makes plenty for us to live on. I'm just old school and feel I should contribute what Im making bonus hunting and thats probably got me into this mindset of playing conservative, or scared, or whatever. She totally has no problem with me doing poker all the time, especially since I keep the house clean and the laundry done and put the food on the table. Geez Ive lost my manhood, now I'm such a housewife :D

We've kinda made this pact that since Im doing fairly well with the bonuses then I can be real selective on what job I hunt for. So Im basically just putting in for goverment jobs since I have 15 years of civilian service already. And a position just came up back out on base that I did for those 15 years (machinist), so I put in for that. Pays 18-20 bucks an hour. I'm really going to miss doing the housework and taking my son to school and picking him up if I get that job. Plus it will cut down my poker play time emensely. Upside to what I do now is if anything was to happen that needs one of use to attend to it, Im available and no one has to miss work. Plus I get to go support my son when he's running track meets in the middle of the day.

Sounds like we're fairly similar, RD. I live w/ my girlfriend, who has a really big, high-paying job. She's always travelling. I work part time, and otherwise take care of the cat, clean up, and cook. Gotta say, being the bitch aint so bad...

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Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Sounds like we're fairly similar, RD. I live w/ my girlfriend, who has a really big, high-paying job. She's always travelling. I work part time, and otherwise take care of the cat, clean up, and cook. Gotta say, being the bitch aint so bad...

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LOL about the bitch thing. I'm not saying my wifey makes alot of money though. Just that we dont need alot of money. She's makes around 32000 a year but just started a new job that will bump that up to about 36000 a year. Both our vehicles are paid off, heck everything we own is paid off. We do rent though and would like to look at buying a house when our son graduates high school in another 2 years. But are holding off on that since he wants to go to this particular HS he's going to. After he graduates we can move into what ever school district we want and not worry about if he's in a good school or not. Plus his track coach is talking about him running in college. I dont know how scholarships go in college but that would be sweet to get some kind of help with his tuition. The grades side isnt going to do it. LOL

It can go either way... if you play for the bonuses, then, yes.

Playing for the bonuses is trying to clear the bonus quickly by playing lots of tables at once, and only playing the top ten hands, moveing from one site to the other clearing bonus after bonus to make your money that way.

However, Making a deposit when a site you play on offers a bonus is just good sense

17/6.5 is, give or take a percent, pretty much my stats at full ring. How did you find it? Did you feel reckless, like you were just about hanging on to Laggy insanity, or did you find that it gave you the best of both worlds with regard to table image and picking up orphan pots?

As for the hands you raised, I don't have PT to hand but I reckon with me it'd be something like this:

AA: 90%
AK: 95%
AQ: 95%
KK: 100%
QQ: 100%
KQ: 75%
JJ: 90%
TT: 80%

edit: the above stats are for open raises - I will often cold call raises pre-flop with several of these hands, depending on position, number of limpers, aggression of villains etc.

Ok, this is very small sample size. But since this post and me working on my mindset of playing poker instead of just limping good hands and nut camping. These are the stats after just under 3 hours play (2:45 min) in one hour sessions. First session was 4 table, other 2 was 3 table at 25NL.

vp$p...14%
pfr......7%
bb/100..12.36

I know thats small sample size, just comparing to how Ive been playing over the last couple months. Old stats were.

vp$p...13.75 (about same really)
pfr......1.58 (big improvement)
bb/100__0.53

So while the vp$p is still about the same ( I didnt change the hands I was playing, just how I was playing them). My PFR has gone up and so has my bb/100. So now I just need to continue on this way.

One question. Are the new numbers about how you want to see them? Or should the vp$p and pfr be a little higher. The bb/100 looks fine, but everyone would want those numbers higher anyway.

So we're talking roughly 500 hands? I don't think you can really rely on your BB/100 stats with such a small sample, but the other stats have validity.

You are a bit tighter than I'd choose to be, but then it's entirely your choice. I imagine you aren't fully taking advantage of position, and you're not playing many suited connectors, so you're probably not quite playing optimally - BUT you do appear to be playing in a relatively safe, profitable way, as long as you are still able to get some action - if I was playing you and saw your VP&IP was 14% I wouldn't bet against you unless I was pretty sure I could win.

What you can do now is go through your HHs and look at all the hands that you made or lost a decent amount on. How many of these would you have played differently before? You can also see how many times people folded pre-flop when you raised with AQ, and how many times you achieved isolation with your broadway cards. See how often you made a successful cont bet after raising pre-flop - these are all potentially tangible results of your tactical change.

That was over 530 hands. I know the sample size is nothing to justify anything with really. Its just a comparison for me to look at on if Im going in the right direction.

As far as hands I play. Basically I use aok's 19 hands. Some of these I fold in early position, such as QJ and sometimes AJ. Maybe a little too tight and should probably limp or min raise? I dont really play suited connecters unless its like AK or KQ. But suited connectors like 89, 56, those type I usually just fold. I know you can take down big pots with them. But arent they loosing hands probably 90% of the time?

Maybe I might should add a few hands to my starting hands at least in position. Like AT, KT, JT, QT. That would probably bump my vp$p up a couple points.

i think you can move that 14/7 closer to 20/7 maybe 20/10 by playing a bit more in late position but if your bonus hunting i can see 14/7 being reasonably profitable while ensuring maximum bonus.

and fwiw bonus hunting doesnt hinder you poker skillz. Unless you are taking on longer term bonuses like pokerroom and affiliates where it could take a while, i think bonus hunting has its own style of play. Your giving up small and perhaps mediocre edges because the long term goal is worth more.
however, i think i had this discussion with renton and it doesnt really matter how you bulk up the bankroll so long as you do. Getting to 1k then 10k are two of the biggest goals that you set in the first 12months of poker (perhaps longer) so while, and big up to him btw, Renton has destroyed party and built upto 8k from full ring id argue that you can make 8k in the same time with similar time commitments from hunting alone.
Indeed, you have a good understnding of many sites while Renton will have to realise one day that not all players suck like party fish. While i certain dont want to take anything away from players who destroy ring on the webs easiest site, as thats what we are hear to do, playing a range of sites will introduce you to all types of scenario. aka, you dont find a table of rocks on party like you used to fins on empire or the rocky ring games at UB.
While playing at one fishy site is good and a comendable way to build the roll up quickly, i sometime consider that a bredth of experience is needed from playing at various sites. and this post is not aimed at taking anything away from Rentons achievments which are trully excellent for such a short period in the game. Congrats btw

I've got it at 15/7 now at 837 hands. bb/100 is up to 21. Of course this is just over a 3 1/2 hour period since Ive gone back to playing to win instead of break even. I know, very very small sample size and all. But I'm just using it for comparison to how the break even play was doing for me. So far in that 3 1/2 hours I'm up $136.00 not including any bonus money. I never realized I was leaving money on the table by trying to just break even to clear the bonus. I'll work more on my late position play to see if I can increase that vp$p a little more. Might be hard for me to go too much higher than that 15 though, I just have trouble playing the suited connectors, especially the mid suited and low suited. It just feels like throwing money away.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Getting to 1k then 10k are two of the biggest goals that you set in the first 12months of poker (perhaps longer)

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I have a goal to get to 3000 before pulling anything out again. Probably wont happen though. So far Ive been whoring since mid Dec, 05 and made around 6000+ but we keep taking around 1000 a month out for various things. At the moment, when I finish the party bonus, considering I clear the whole bonus which I should, I'll be sitting right on 2000 in my br, spread out on various sites. Im hoping to be at 3000 or really close to it by end of the month. Once I get to 3000 I feel I will be better rolled for some of the bigger bonuses, like casino sticky's.

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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

As far as hands I play. Basically I use aok's 19 hands. Some of these I fold in early position, such as QJ and sometimes AJ. Maybe a little too tight and should probably limp or min raise? I dont really play suited connecters unless its like AK or KQ. But suited connectors like 89, 56, those type I usually just fold. I know you can take down big pots with them. But arent they loosing hands probably 90% of the time?

Maybe I might should add a few hands to my starting hands at least in position. Like AT, KT, JT, QT. That would probably bump my vp$p up a couple points.

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I think this post needs attention. You are FAR more likely to lose big and win small with hands like KT than with 56s. The reason should be fairly clear, bnut I'll give examples:

You hold KTo. The flop is K23. You bet in CO, button calls you. Turn and river are rags, but you keep betting (this could work the other way round too - he bets and you call). He turns over KJ and you lose. Or AK, or KQ. Not a lot of people are going to be staying in with K9 and below, so who realistically are you beating here? A3? TT?

You hold 56s, and the flop is K23. You check, button makes a proper bet - you fold and lose the grand total of 1BB. Or you check, button checks. Turn is a 4. You have the nuts.

So that's the problem - betting hands like AT or QJ you are ALWAYS worrying about being dominated - and because by and large only stronger aces or queens will stay in hands, you're going to be betting strongly with top pair only to discover someone else has a better top pair. You only make lots of money when you hit trips, flushes, two pair or sets - and you are just as likely to hit these with 56s (indeed more so because AT can only make one straight - TJQKA - whereas 56 can form part of 23456, 34567,45678 or 56789)

Suited connectors are lovely because yes, they miss 90% of the time - so you chuck them away with nary a thought. But when they hit - by wich I mean make two pair and upwards - you are going to take down impressive pots more often than not, because they are a relatively well disguised hand. 56s versus AK on an A56 rainbow board? You should get half his stack, no worries!

So, in short - DO NOT PLAY AT-QT except in very rare situations where you can combine aggression with position - indeed, considering your own personal requirements, just don't play them at all (ATs maybe). Be very, very careful when playing KJ and QJ for the same reason (and bear in mind even AQ is a deeply vulnerable hand).

My final point is about minraising pre-flop. Just don't. What does it do? It certainly doesn't scare anyone off if they have a decent hand; it gives chasers decent odds to call at little risk, and bad players will call it with K7o and end up sucking out on you - effectively all you're doing is doubling the price of your limp and emotionally committing yourself more to the hand (n which, in the examples you gave, you're holding very marginal cards yourself).

Again as others have said, dont expect your winrate to stay that high. Will it be higher than breakeven? Yes, but its not just instantly going to jump to 20 and sustain. Anyways though, 15/7 isnt anything too tight, thats right around what Im at, but I am trying to open up a little. Get used to this before you start opening up even more.

Miffed, so you suggest using the bonuses to help grow your bankroll? Personally, if I deposit at a site for a bonus, or reload at one, I withdraw the bonus money and put it in my savings account. If I make any profit on top of the bonus [which I hope I do] then I add that to my bankroll. I just feel like adding bonuses to my poker br artificially inflates it and would make me move up in limits way too quickly. I guess whatever works for you, I just personally find it hard to move up in levels based on a bankroll that isnt entirely built from my poker earnings.

I have to admit that when I talk about my BR I don't include the bonuses, just what I have earned playing. But I'm a bankroll baby as it is and another $500 or whatever on top of that would just make me look even more ridiculous :)

A very sage point. AQ is a danger hand for me and PT tells me to beware of this hand in a big way. That said, QTs is a +EV hand for me, but with a strong trend towards play from the blinds and post-flop action.

As a minor aside, my stats for 1500 hands are:
VP$IP = 17.25
PFR = 4.90%
BB/100 = -25.97

Yes, I know that's crap, but these figures are from my start in poker (I don't get to play much) and include my first steps into ring, including a very bad foray into $50NL and two bad suckouts with KK (both cracked by AA).

Give me time... I'll learn

J

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Originally Posted by biondino

I think this post needs attention. You are FAR more likely to lose big and win small with hands like KT than with 56s. The reason should be fairly clear, bnut I'll give examples:

You hold KTo. The flop is K23. You bet in CO, button calls you. Turn and river are rags, but you keep betting (this could work the other way round too - he bets and you call). He turns over KJ and you lose. Or AK, or KQ. Not a lot of people are going to be staying in with K9 and below, so who realistically are you beating here? A3? TT?

You hold 56s, and the flop is K23. You check, button makes a proper bet - you fold and lose the grand total of 1BB. Or you check, button checks. Turn is a 4. You have the nuts.

So that's the problem - betting hands like AT or QJ you are ALWAYS worrying about being dominated - and because by and large only stronger aces or queens will stay in hands, you're going to be betting strongly with top pair only to discover someone else has a better top pair. You only make lots of money when you hit trips, flushes, two pair or sets - and you are just as likely to hit these with 56s (indeed more so because AT can only make one straight - TJQKA - whereas 56 can form part of 23456, 34567,45678 or 56789)

Suited connectors are lovely because yes, they miss 90% of the time - so you chuck them away with nary a thought. But when they hit - by wich I mean make two pair and upwards - you are going to take down impressive pots more often than not, because they are a relatively well disguised hand. 56s versus AK on an A56 rainbow board? You should get half his stack, no worries!

So, in short - DO NOT PLAY AT-QT except in very rare situations where you can combine aggression with position - indeed, considering your own personal requirements, just don't play them at all (ATs maybe). Be very, very careful when playing KJ and QJ for the same reason (and bear in mind even AQ is a deeply vulnerable hand).

My final point is about minraising pre-flop. Just don't. What does it do? It certainly doesn't scare anyone off if they have a decent hand; it gives chasers decent odds to call at little risk, and bad players will call it with K7o and end up sucking out on you - effectively all you're doing is doubling the price of your limp and emotionally committing yourself more to the hand (n which, in the examples you gave, you're holding very marginal cards yourself).

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Playing hands like AT or KT in late position has never been a problem for me when I have done it. FOLD is my middle name if the flop doesnt come right for me. And I have no problem folding TPTK to any kind of aggression. I can fold AT just as fast as I can fold 56s if the flop doesnt hit me. I do see what you are talking about on suited connectors and it makes alot of sense. Good post, thanks.

biondino and andy-akb, dont interpret my post wrong when I put a dollar amount on my br. Thats simply to show how the bonus hunting has been progressing. And as far as what Miffed is talking about, bonus whoring helps you to build your br to a point where your comfortable playing and can improve in order to move up. If you are sitting with a small br say $300 or so, then you tend to play scared if your playing at 25NL because your not really rolled for it. But if your br is sitting at say 1000 because you bonus whored to build it, then playing at 25NL is not so scary because now you can afford to loose a buy in if you are sucked out on.

What you have to keep in mind though, is even if your br is sitting nice at say 4000 or higher, that doesnt mean your ready to jump into the 200NL ring. Unless you built that br strictly from poker with no bonus help, then you probably are. If a person doesnt have the discipline to understand this then they will do nothing but blow the br they worked so hard to build up through whoring.

Discipline has never been a problem for me. Im not building my br so I can jump right into the 200NL ring and skip the limits below that. Im building my br so I can play for bigger bonuses and build it higher. Lets just say I'm greedy and like free money. My poker improvement and advancement will come along at its own pace and will not be rushed along just to say Im playing at a certain level. I've played up to 100NL chasing a bonus at B365 without much difficulty, but as soon as the bonus was cleared I left and dropped back down. Normally I play 25NL and 50NL with the majority of time spent at the 25NL tables. And when I'm working on bonuses I tend to play the lowest tables allowed even if thats 10NL. And yeah playing the lowest limits allowed to clear a bonus does take a little extra time, but Ive never put an emphasis on time. Time is just not something I worry about. Pride also has nothing to do with what limit I play, thats for sure, I can easily sit at a 10NL game and have fun, plus make money. lol

Dont get me wrong though. I'll move up when I'm ready to move up, but it wont be because my br says I have enough buy ins to. It'll be because I feel I'm ready to move up.

Rabid, apologies if I seem to be hammering home the same point, but I think you misinterpreted something I said:

I can fold AT just as fast as I can fold 56s if the flop doesnt hit me

This isn't what I'm talking about - it's when it DOES hit you that you can potentially lose a lot. If the flop comes Axx obviously you have to bet here, because if you won't play an ace-high flop why are you betting AT at all? But unless you hit two pair or better, you're losing a fair whack to AJ-AK, all of which you are more likely to come across than A2-A9 which will mostly have been folded pre-flop.

With 56s, even if you hit your 5 or 6 you know that you've got a poor hand (unless you get a draw, in which case you have a good hand), so on a J63 flop folding 56 is going to be pretty easy in the face of any strength from your oppo. But AT on an AQ8 flop - what do you do here? If someone bets before you, or calls your bet, what do they have? KJ? AK? AJ? 88? QT?

So, you either have to define your position with a re-raise, which will prove expensive if they have you beat (which they often will); or you just check/call to the river and hope that your donkish opponent played A9. Or you fold - but as I said above, if you fold with an ace on the flop then why play the hand at all? In case you hit the ten?

Clearly all the above is even more relevant playing KT or QT etc.

My BR is approaching 10k, so bonuses are becoming less and less significant next to the amount I make grinding and the amount I expect to be making in rakeback if I would just get off my ass and signup for it.

That being said, I think if you have less than 5k you should always be going for a bonus. I don't think it hinders player development, because it enables you to play a different sites of different tightness qualities. You go from playing an ultrafishy site like Jetset where theres no fold equity whatsoever, to the somewhat fishy but shark ridden waters of PartyPoker, to the tight aggressive albeit draw chasing bastards of B2B. I think it makes you a well rounded player.

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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

my VP$P is a whopping 13.75, and PF raise % is 1.58,

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I eat players like you for breakfast by calling your raises with any two cards and sucking out.

You really really need to raise more.

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Originally Posted by biondino

Rabid, apologies if I seem to be hammering home the same point, but I think you misinterpreted something I said:

I can fold AT just as fast as I can fold 56s if the flop doesnt hit me

This isn't what I'm talking about - it's when it DOES hit you that you can potentially lose a lot. If the flop comes Axx obviously you have to bet here, because if you won't play an ace-high flop why are you betting AT at all? But unless you hit two pair or better, you're losing a fair whack to AJ-AK, all of which you are more likely to come across than A2-A9 which will mostly have been folded pre-flop.

With 56s, even if you hit your 5 or 6 you know that you've got a poor hand (unless you get a draw, in which case you have a good hand), so on a J63 flop folding 56 is going to be pretty easy in the face of any strength from your oppo. But AT on an AQ8 flop - what do you do here? If someone bets before you, or calls your bet, what do they have? KJ? AK? AJ? 88? QT?

So, you either have to define your position with a re-raise, which will prove expensive if they have you beat (which they often will); or you just check/call to the river and hope that your donkish opponent played A9. Or you fold - but as I said above, if you fold with an ace on the flop then why play the hand at all? In case you hit the ten?

Clearly all the above is even more relevant playing KT or QT etc.

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No, I totally understood what you was getting at, and it makes alot of sense. I never thought about small or mid suited connecters that way. And thats why I never played them. I only made the remark about the AT, KT situation to state that I dont have a problem folding them. Even if I have TPTK. It wasnt ment to turn anything you said around or anything like that. AT, KT and the like are hands I never played anyhow except from BB. Well sometimes I would from the button or OOP if folded around to me, but very rarely.

I never really understood what people saw in suited connectors really, untill your reply above. Now I will start playing those in position more, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

my VP$P is a whopping 13.75, and PF raise % is 1.58,

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you really really need to raise more.

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Read my other post. Since going back to playing poker again (abiet a small sample size) its up to 15/7.

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I eat players like you for breakfast by calling your raises with any two cards and sucking out.

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You should own B2B then, because thats just how they play. :D

Also you have to understand, I havent always played that way. Thats only been for the last couple months. Ive only had PT for around a month and a half so its got somewhere around 10,000 hands in it.

For some reason a couple months ago my mentality changed to just clearing the bonuses playing as close to break even as I could. Just get through one and move to the next. So while my profits or bb/100 wasnt anything to look at, the bottom dollar was good for me.

But the other day I got to thinking maybe playing that way was hindering me from improving, thats why I posted the question and poll.

Was it hindering me from making money? No. But apparently it was hindering me from optimizing my profits by leaving alot of money on the table. I think it was biondino that pointed that out. I never really thought about it because the bonus money was and is keeping my br growing.

But now I realize that the bonus money is still going to help grow my br but why not get back to playing poker and help the br grow even more. In other words stop leaving money on the table.

So dont take those numbers I posted in PT as 100%. I wasnt always that tight and Im working my way back to not being that tight.

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Miffed, so you suggest using the bonuses to help grow your bankroll? Personally, if I deposit at a site for a Bonus, or reload at one, I withdraw the Bonus money and put it in my savings account. If I make any profit on top of the Bonus [which I hope I do] then I add that to my bankroll. I just feel like adding bonuses to my poker br artificially inflates it and would make me move up in limits way too quickly. I guess whatever works for you, I just personally find it hard to move up in levels based on a bankroll that isnt entirely built from my poker earnings.

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I wont quote the name of the person who said this to me and i wont be as rude as he was either BUT this is a horrible attitude.
Before you blow up, its the same attitude i had 6 months ago too once easy-t got me on the bonus bandwagon.
However, im not going to come out and say you are wrong by not inflating the br and playing higher limits but that is where the money is.
Ok, you say im not good enough yet. Well yeah i had that problem too. Im still JUST about 12 months in to poker too.
However, my stance recently has been that below 100nl you play each site for a bonus, you shouldnt be sticking to one site. Move around inflate the br. Additionally, with this experience and 15k hands at each level (and a +bb/100) then you are ready to move up ANYWAY.
For me bb/100 is a lame excuse at comparing how ur doing. DOnt do it. If its positive then move up. Yeah, sitting with 400 is scry the first time you do it, but if you dont suck you wont lose it will you? esp if your adequetly br'ed. So stop cashing that bonus and get moved up.

and by no means am i teeling you what to do or ignoring your opinion, its just that i was where you are and with the same attitude 6 months ago.

I am still a bonus hunter with a $28k bankroll...

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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

I am still a bonus hunter with a $28k bankroll...

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Thats awsome.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I wont quote the name of the person who said this to me and i wont be as rude as he was either BUT this is a horrible attitude.
Before you blow up, its the same attitude i had 6 months ago too once easy-t got me on the bonus bandwagon.
However, im not going to come out and say you are wrong by not inflating the br and playing higher limits but that is where the money is.
Ok, you say im not good enough yet. Well yeah i had that problem too. Im still JUST about 12 months in to poker too.
However, my stance recently has been that below 100nl you play each site for a bonus, you shouldnt be sticking to one site. Move around inflate the br. Additionally, with this experience and 15k hands at each level (and a +bb/100) then you are ready to move up ANYWAY.
For me bb/100 is a lame excuse at comparing how ur doing. DOnt do it. If its positive then move up. Yeah, sitting with 400 is scry the first time you do it, but if you dont suck you wont lose it will you? esp if your adequetly br'ed. So stop cashing that bonus and get moved up.

and by no means am i teeling you what to do or ignoring your opinion, its just that i was where you are and with the same attitude 6 months ago.

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I disagree with it being a horrible attitude, I think its simply a different attitude. If I were to include the bonuses in my BR Id have a big enough roll to be playing $50nl, close to enough to play $100nl, I just really dont think my skill level is good enough to play there profitably. My winrate over 15k tracked hands at PP $25nl is only about 4-5ptbb/100 hands, not enough hands to be statistically sure of my true winrate, but enought o know that I still have huge leaks in my game. These leaks are costing me money at my current level and will cost me more money at the higher levels, not just because the blinds are higher, but because the players will exploit them more.

You have a lot more experience than I do, Ive only played ring games for about a month and a half [about 4 months of "serious" online poker]. Im just trying to find a balance between moving up in limits and developing a strong fundamental game at the lower levels. What benefits do you see to moving up quicker through adding bonuses to your bankroll as opposed to moving up at a slower pace trying to plug leaks?

The thing is nobody says just because you are rolled for 100NL or 400NL that you have to move up. I'm rolled for 100NL right now, but I still play 25NL mostly, some 50NL. You should move up when your ready to move up, not because your br says you have enough to. But you do want to have enough in your br also before you do decide to move up.

Some of you guys are really overrating the ability of the players at higher limits. I'm moving up to 200NL right now and there are still plenty of really awful players there, you just have to look harder in order to find them. Table selection gets more important the higher the stakes, because there are more tables full of players who don't suck.

From your posts in this thread it sounds like you're wasting your time at 25NL and you really should move up to at least 50NL, and maybe take some shots at 100NL if you see a juicy table.

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I disagree with it being a horrible attitude, I think its simply a different attitude. If I were to include the bonuses in my BR Id have a big enough roll to be playing $50nl, close to enough to play $100nl, I just really dont think my skill level is good enough to play there profitably. My winrate over 15k tracked hands at PP $25nl is only about 4-5ptbb/100 hands, not enough hands to be statistically sure of my true winrate, but enought o know that I still have huge leaks in my game. These leaks are costing me money at my current level and will cost me more money at the higher levels, not just because the blinds are higher, but because the players will exploit them more.

You have a lot more experience than I do, Ive only played ring games for about a month and a half [about 4 months of "serious" online poker]. Im just trying to find a balance between moving up in limits and developing a strong fundamental game at the lower levels. What benefits do you see to moving up quicker through adding bonuses to your bankroll as opposed to moving up at a slower pace trying to plug leaks?

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I think as the post before mine mentioned, if you have a fundamnetally sound foundation to your game and are adeqautly bankrolled then move up. We all have leaks still. Agreed, if you move to 50nl and run -5/100 then of course you move back down and reevaluate, however your giving to much credit to players who arent that much, in fact probably arent, better than you if you dont move up. If you show a positive bb/100 over 15k hands at a certain limit and are br'ed for the next then move up and give it a shot, the only thing you'll lose is a bit of pride if you have to move back down and fix some leaks. Br management is there to protect you if you get out of your depth or hit variance etc so if your rolled move up.

What do you consider a juicy table at 100NL? I mean how do you decide which table to play that has fish without actually knowing the players? High amount of people playing pre flop % + amount of money avg pot?

I've played as high as 100NL and did alright there, but like I said it was just for a bonus that required you play that level. So once I finished the bonus I dropped back down. When I play 50NL, I dont really see anything that says the players are any better than the 25NL players. I just tend to play the lowest limits allowed when I'm chasing a bonus, even though I know you clear them faster playing the higher limits.

Ok I just read this thread now, but eh.. it is possible to make $1k each month playing break-even poker simply from bonusses?!

ha haha hahaha

Sry about that, but I think I'm gonna be cashing out at unibet now and moving around lol..

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Originally Posted by jackvance

Ok I just read this thread now, but eh.. it is possible to make $1k each month playing break-even poker simply from bonusses?!

ha haha hahaha

Sry about that, but I think I'm gonna be cashing out at unibet now and moving around lol..

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Absolutely, especially if you combine casino whoring along with poker whoring. In Dec 05, my first month ever whoring, I made $1500 in less than 3 weeks and didnt have to work very hard to do it either, holiday month you know. Then you add in monthly reloads and what you make at poker and continued whoring. Keep in mind though its not guaranteed money, especially in the casino's. You dont clear your bonuses sometimes and sometimes you bust completely. But the positives far outweigh the negatives. Plus always always always read the T&C's, casino's change those all the time.

If I would work harder at it I would probably do better. But I only put in 3-4 hours a day or so. I'm lazy. Plus I now let my wife do most of my casino reloads. I wish I had started this a year or so ago. My br would be huge now. But now casino bonuses seem to be thinning out or moving to slots. And I dont care about slots.

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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

What do you consider a juicy table at 100NL? I mean how do you decide which table to play that has fish without actually knowing the players? High amount of people playing pre flop % + amount of money avg pot?

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Those statistics are a good starting point, however, the only way you can really know how juicy a table is, is to sit down at it for a couple of orbits, and if you don't like the way things are going, then leave. There are a lot of good suggestions elsewhere in this forum for how to find good tables.

For example:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/poker-128.htm

i cant rememeber jackvance if the pro bonus whore expected profit a year is 15 or 50k.
check bonuswhores

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I think as the post before mine mentioned, if you have a fundamnetally sound foundation to your game and are adeqautly bankrolled then move up. We all have leaks still. Agreed, if you move to 50nl and run -5/100 then of course you move back down and reevaluate, however your giving to much credit to players who arent that much, in fact probably arent, better than you if you dont move up. If you show a positive bb/100 over 15k hands at a certain limit and are br'ed for the next then move up and give it a shot, the only thing you'll lose is a bit of pride if you have to move back down and fix some leaks. Br management is there to protect you if you get out of your depth or hit variance etc so if your rolled move up.

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Right I agree with this, I move up when my BR allows it, Im not saying I dont, I am just saying that I think moving up when the BR allows it including bonuses would be moving up way too fast. When I play for a bonus [which right now is a lot of the time] I dont deposit money from my BR to get the bonus, I deposit it from my checking account [with a debit card] and then withdraw the deposit and the bonus and keep the profits on top of that in my account. I simply view bonuses as extra money that I get from using non poker money, so I like to keep it non poker. If I were depositing with money from my BR then I would keep it all in my BR. I left that part out in my earlier posts.

well if you are playing out of your bank roll to clear the bonus faster you may start playing scared which would hurt you...