confused on betting KK post flop here

i had no reads, so min raising pre flop was pretty bad (not used to party's software and had to act quick)...but what about post flop? would you take a different line on this dry of a board?

my 1/2 pot bets were supposed to get called by a worse pair or raised on the turn by something better. The flat calls meant probably a boat or KJ/AJ to me or else a stubborn pair thinking i have AQ/AK, so I blocked-bet the river.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($50.59)
MP ($29.90)
CO ($21.05)
Button ($36.80)
Hero ($32.45)
BB ($26.47)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, Button raises to $1, Hero (poster) raises to $1.9, 1 fold, Button calls $1.

Flop: ($4.25) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2.5, Button calls $2.50.

Turn: ($9.25) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button calls $5.

River: ($19.25) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button raises to $25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $49.25

You need to raise bigger preflop. Raise to 3 at least. Postflop is fine until river where you should check and fold.

Edit: I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Myke

you're river bet looks weak

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It's standard play though. The only hands that raise you here have you beat, most likely. So fold. I think Hero did good, only reraise more preflop.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

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Originally Posted by Myke

you're river bet looks weak

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It's standard play though. The only hands that raise you here have you beat, most likely. So fold. I think Hero did good, only reraise more preflop.

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I see no reason to bet that river. Maybe check call a possible bluff, but against most players I check and fold. There's just nothing he could have been calling big bets on every street with that we beat, xcept maybe QQ or TT.

i dont think you should have folded the river why bet have the pot on turn then lose confidence on the river the villian would have bet the same way with a pair of queens or even less because you showed weakeness with the weak bet on the river

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Originally Posted by wylted

i dont think you should have folded the river why bet have the pot on turn then lose confidence on the river the villian would have bet the same way with a pair of queens or even less because you showed weakeness with the weak bet on the river

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If you can't lay down AA/KK in spots like this your winrate is gonna severely suffer.

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by wylted

i dont think you should have folded the river why bet have the pot on turn then lose confidence on the river the villian would have bet the same way with a pair of queens or even less because you showed weakeness with the weak bet on the river

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If you can't lay down AA/KK in spots like this your winrate is gonna severely suffer.

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all im saying is what did he think the 4 of clubs gave his opponent that made his hand stronger then top pair

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Originally Posted by wylted

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wylted

i dont think you should have folded the river why bet have the pot on turn then lose confidence on the river the villian would have bet the same way with a pair of queens or even less because you showed weakeness with the weak bet on the river

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If you can't lay down AA/KK in spots like this your winrate is gonna severely suffer.

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all im saying is what did he think the 4 of clubs gave his opponent that made his hand stronger then top pair

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Sorry I misread your post, I thought you were saying to bet bigger on the river. I still don't know if I am sure what you mean though. I think you mean that he should have bet big if he was gonna bet at all (this makes sense I guess).

This is one of those hands where hero would love to be in position. Decisions are soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier.

wylted, what we think happened here was that the Villian has the J and was just cold calling here to induce a bigger bet from the Hero. On the river, Hero bets, Villain raises to get the most money in the pot because this is his last chance. The 4 definitely didn't help Villain, the Flop did. Good fold :)

If you checked and villain bet lets say 1/3 of the pot or less, would you call? These are situations I dont like being in because I always feel like by leading the first two streets and then checking on the last that you are just asking somebody to push you off your hand. I know that the common logic is nobody is going to be in this hand to the river with a hand you beat, but sometimes I find that hard to believe.

Smooth calls on non drawing board bad news. River raise even worse news.

I'm guessing this is why you reraise big pre-flop when out of position? Would a raise of another $2 have changed anything?

I'll defer to those with more experience in these matters, but it looks like the Villian doesn't want to be called with that large of a bet on the river. Doesn't that imply that the Villian doesn't have a J? Doesn't folding here almost guarantee that you'll be in this exact same position again against an aware player?

yea- i basically always reraise more pre flop, just a mistake from being a newb on party software. id think a 3x reraise pre flop would get rid of jq, and maybe even kj/aj but it would still play the same post-flop, right? and with a call/call/mega-raise line with no draws out, it could be that the villain made a smart play, but im thinking more often at low limits it's at least trip jacks doing this. i also like renton's play better of a check and prob fold on the river. so, besides the min raise pre flop, it looks like the main thing about this hand is being OOP with no reads SUCKS.

also, switching lines if i get a read the OPP is making moves like this would be better, but im being lazy for now in 25NL since i usually find easy tables...

you've got a marginal hand on the turn with showdown value that's either way ahead or way behind

check and limit the pot. call anything reasonable.

And of course pump that shit pre flop.