Dealing with LAGs?

Hi everyone,
I'm new here (and pretty new player), and I'm a very tight player in general; I pretty much play 19 hands, and I'll limp in with some other hands if there aren't any preflop raises. However, half the guys I play with are hardcore LAGs. What's the best way to deal with them? The advice I've gotten has all seemed to point in the same direction - tighten up and wait for a monster. We play tiny blinds, so blind-stealing has never been a problem. I just want to break my dependency on the luck of the draw.

what do u mean you only play 19 hands

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Originally Posted by pepsiholic

Hi everyone,
I'm new here (and pretty new player), and I'm a very tight player in general; I pretty much play 19 hands, and I'll limp in with some other hands if there aren't any preflop raises. However, half the guys I play with are hardcore LAGs. What's the best way to deal with them? The advice I've gotten has all seemed to point in the same direction - tighten up and wait for a monster. We play tiny blinds, so blind-stealing has never been a problem. I just want to break my dependency on the luck of the draw.

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So are you losing to these guys? is this online or live? if you're just playing 19 hands then i don't think tightening anymore will accomplish much. perhaps you have become too predictable. post some examples.

A lot of lags don't like to be reraised preflop. If a guy is especially laggy, I'll start coming over the top of them. The best advice I can give you is not to call (unless you're getting good implied odds), either raise or fold.

You have to learn to read them a bit. Get an idea of what they have based on percentages...
In a particular situation they have a big pair 10%, ace-face 30%, a small pair 20%, air 40%... make your decision based on that.

Really though, it sounds like you play some pretty unreadable players. Mix it up a bit, find their faults and exploit them. If they run when you raise, play any two from the button and bet or reraise the flop half the time on air.

Try out different things, and let us know what happens. If you give us some hand histories we can give you more specific advice.

Have position on them. Use pressure points http://doubleas.blogspot.com/2005_05...s_archive.html
Re-raise them a lot PF. If you end up calling, especially with position, they are running the game.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

what do u mean you only play 19 hands

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Preflop, I'll only play the "starting 19 hands" that a lot of tight beginners play - all PPs and combos of face cards.

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Originally Posted by thnwkd

So are you losing to these guys? is this online or live? if you're just playing 19 hands then i don't think tightening anymore will accomplish much. perhaps you have become too predictable. post some examples.

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It's live, and I'm a little better than even; none of my losses are ever big and I win considerable amounts but I want to improve my play so I can win more :)

There's one player who bugs me because he wins a lot of money by playing the most ridiculous hands. Here's one example:
It's a 9 player SnG, buy-in 20xBB. I have a very tight table image (only two hands they’ve seen me play are AA and QQ), I'm holding AA on the button with 80xBB, and he has T8 offsuit in middle position with 50xBB. He raises preflop 2xBB, player between us calls, I reraise 4xBB more, both players call. Flop comes T94, he raises 6xBB, and the other player folds. At this point I’m hesitating, and I have him on a set (is that a good read? I know he overvalues low PPs) or JJ/QQ. I reraise 10xBB, he calls. Turn is a 6, he raises 10xBB, I reraise 10xBB and he calls. River’s a 2 or 3, he goes all-in with the little he has left and I call.
I know he legitimately thought he was ahead; he was shocked. I was shocked too; I figured he had to have something better than TP. In retrospect, I think he thought I was bluffing. But on the next hand that we’re going to play, I feel like I’m going to have no idea what he’s going to have.

I think I am becoming too predictable, though. I play with the same guys and any raises I throw in scare most guys off. I’m going to try what dev mentioned,

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Originally Posted by dev

play any two from the button and bet or reraise the flop half the time on air.

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but that leads me to another thing I need help with – bluffing.

Bluffing preflop seems like a lost cause to me. If I bet small with nothing, then I’ll be called by a bunch of guys who will probably have better hands than I do. If I bet big, then I’ll be either a) called by a monster or b) stealing next to nothing.
When’s the best time to bluff, and what amount seems best? With my image, would it be best to bluff on strong or weak flops? I'm thinking strong, but that seems a lot riskier than bluffing on weak flops.

1) You played that hand like crap. No offense meant, but I want it to sound as serious as it is. That was a weak reraise, especially against a loose player. The flop raise is less than half the pot at that point. You need to make a bet here. Lastly, if you had him on a set, why are you putting more money in the pot (esp raising his bets)?

2) These guys obviously don't need to be bluffed.

3) If your raises get too much respect, raise more hands. There's a lot of legitimate raising hands against these guys' hand range. If they're minraising T8o, I'm pumping it up with a lot of hands.

I think sejje's advice is good...

I tend to try to out-agg the bad laggs from position, it drives them nuts, and those types of players usually tilt out pretty easy. The thing is, I'm lagg by default. If you're naturally tight, play tight, but make small adjustments. It's probably more profitable to do that than to make major changes like raising air and that sort of thing.

It sounds like a home game... ABC poker is best. Put them on a range of hands, value bet, get the hell out if you're probably beat (let them bluff you now, you'll get them later in a better spot), bluff big and only with a good read, etc.

Dev raises a good point when he says "bad laggs". Most players who fancy themselves as laggs aren't actually very good at it (such as me whenever i try it). It works for them when their opponents are overcautious and weak; but if you play back hard with a mixture of hands and position, you'll soon gain an advantage over the players who basically just try to bully wins with anything.

Reads!

Reads are the most absolutely important thing with LAGG's. If you're playing live, you can often tell when they're raising with good hands; they may touch their chips when they look at their cards, or they may tighten up and not be as talkative. Fold these hands clearly, but any 2 face cards Q and up are generally monsters as you will often have their raising hands dominated. TPTK becomes very strong, as do overpairs. Set hunt with 3:1 or better preflop and small blinds, they'll pay you off.

Otherwise, bet hard into draw heavy boards, and when draws complete that they appear to be chasing, don't give them really any chips. Let them make the mistakes of raising into your good hands, and exploit this preflop and postflop. Be prepared to fold alot of hands that you miss to encourage them to bet into the hands that you hit.

The hands that you play and how you play them preflop don't matter as much, except that you should tend to play your strong hands much stronger than normal. You have to be the one playing with their heads. Use obvious moves, and be an

When you're strong, take the opportunity to overbet the pot and drive out callers, and show. Do it again later when you're weak, and show. There's no obvious plays, but you have to throw them off their bully gameplan. Anyway there's my 2c, peace

Against LAGs I will reraise/push them all day with AA,KK,AKs,AKo,QQ,AQs,etc.....

Pick your spots,trap them,and then go home richer.

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Originally Posted by pepsiholic

Hi everyone,
I'm new here (and pretty new player), and I'm a very tight player in general; I pretty much play 19 hands, and I'll limp in with some other hands if there aren't any preflop raises. However, half the guys I play with are hardcore LAGs. What's the best way to deal with them? The advice I've gotten has all seemed to point in the same direction - tighten up and wait for a monster. We play tiny blinds, so blind-stealing has never been a problem. I just want to break my dependency on the luck of the draw.

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for the record, i consider 19 hand an online multi-table nl ring game. It's overly tight for Any single table play - live or online. If you're only playing 1 table then it is WAYYY too slow to make money. You need to consider a wider game, put more emphasis on position and reads, table image and agression.

A couple tricks I use - althought I'm not a big player against LAGs, my my 19 hand mult-table style will generally fold any questionable hand (even of the 19) to a strong preflop raise.

However, if I'm sitting at a table with an obvious out of control agressive player - especially preflop - then I'll limp/push with any big pair. I'll limp in, let them raise, then push all in. The thing agressive players is that they rush into any vaccum. They hate weak play. They feel that have to rape baby seals to be happy. Take advange of that and trap them, but better yet (to get their repsect) do the limp/push with any big pair. It's risky, but you have to put a compulsively agressive player on junk. The more agressive they are the more junky it probably is.

but for the record - 19 hand is too tight for live play.

for the record...
I like this last post aok. you are coming into a greater understanding of strategy than you had before. (your psychology posts are the best I have have read, including Schoonmaker and Feeney)
But you have still a ways to go with how to deal with specific situations.
If you limp in EP, I ma going to raise a huge range (near 15%) of my hands.
If you are limp reraising me with only the top 3%, you are exploitable, even for a LAG. I fold the bad hands and reraise the 2.5 percent that beats your range. Or, I just call, and passively call you down with a hand that it is very hard for you to define. Do I have AA or a set? Maybe a flush draw? Total crap? when that third flush card comes and I push all in, do you fold your overpair?
The truth is, the players who do the best agtainst me turn it around. They reraise me preflop, but not with just the big pairs. AND NOT OUT OF POSITION! If I am raising 20% of my hands preflop, you can profitably re-raise 8% Chances are this is very close to what you are raising already. So RE RAISE WITH MOST HANDS YOU WOULD OPEN RAISE WITH!. Until I have some History with you, I am automatically going to put you on AA-QQ. (This is your typical re-raising range, is it not? If I call (unlikely) you can put me on some type of implied odds hand.
No matter what the flop is.... DO NOT give me odds to draw to a flush or straight. If you have AA and the flop is A78 DO NOT SLOWPLAY.
--random aside... I have a tendency to bet or checkraise almost any A high flop v a pre flop RE raiser, since there is a very small chance that they both reraised with an ace and an ace flopped. This is an easy way to take pots away from KK/QQ.
I am agressive. If I think I can take the pot, I will probably try. Regardless, it is probably not a good idea to hope for me to bluff. ESPECIALLY if you bet all but your best hands. If I get reraised preflop and the flop is A high, and you check.... yes, I'll maybe make a stab at it, but chances are I'm not calling a raise. If you bet... I may raise hoping you are hoping that I don't have the ace and you have the KK/QQ hand. That gives you a chance to 3 bet (which will make me fold) or CALL.
There is an amazing profitability in calling me down with hands you might normally raise with.
-- NOTE: I did NOT say calliung me down with hand syou might normally fold. I am smart enough to not lose my stack with nothing, despite how nuts I may appear.
The reason you would refrain from raising is that despite my LAGGiness, it is really only aparrent preflop and to an extenty on the flop. Beyond that, chances are if I don't give up, I probably have the hand that I am representing, especially on the river. I am only firing 2 or 3 barrels against the few players I know like to call to the river, THEN fold their mediocre hands (and there are more than a few of these)
When you raise me, it is a big red flag for me to fold.
(especially if you are one of these players playing "19 hands")
Don't assume just because someone looks like a fish or a maniac preflop, doesn't mean they can't outplay you postflop.
Don't define your hand so well. When you tell me exactly what you have preflop (by only re-raising QQ-AA) Then you allow me to play PERFECTLY post flop.
Finally, when you do decide to reraise me (or anyone.. typically think awbout reraising 40% of their PFR.. i.e if their PFR is 5%, reraise 2%, if it is 30% reraise 12% strange as it may seem. You can check out www.pokerstove.com to see what the top x% of hands are)
Reraise enough that you don't give me odds to call anyway. So often I raise with some crap like J8s in LP and I get reraised by one of the blinds, but only a min reraise! of course I am going to call. Not only are you giving me at least 3 to 1 on my call right now((when there are very few hands I am a 3 to 1 dog to), but I have the implied odds for when your AA stacks off to me on a 79T flop.
So I guess: How do you deal with a lag? reraise A LOT preflop. NEVER give odds to draw, and most importantly try to figure out when I have it and fold, and when I am bluffing... and call. Be more inclined to call flop bets than turn and river bets.
FINALLY: For me personally, it is REALLY easy to take me off the best hand on the turn/river. I spend so much time bluffing that I know people are just waiting for that hand that I will pay them off. My job is to not let that happen. I have folded the second nuts in HE more than anyone I know, DESPITE the fact that I am perfectly capable of pushing all in with 6 high. If something about my play or my betting tells you I probably don't have it, make a BIG bet to let me know you mean business. I will often go away.

Good Luck.

laggs are easy to play
3 bet them a lot
pre and post flop.

But then demi just said that ....

do what demi said
:-)

is this advice for cash games or tournaments? Some of the moves here seems kinda risky at tournaments.

LAGs are easy to play miff? Sit down at my tables all day long and become a millionar then :>

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Originally Posted by saxin

is this advice for cash games or tournaments? Some of the moves here seems kinda risky at tournaments.

LAGs are easy to play miff? Sit down at my tables all day long and become a millionar then :>

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thats a challenge ill take up at some point

Wow. Really good post, Demi. Sticky-worthy?

Now everyone knows how to beat laggs!

Damn you Demi!!! DAAAMN YOU!!!

Your post reminds me of the looks on the faces of guys who call me 'open-ass' and then see me lay kings or queens preflop in the 2/5 at the casino. After that they're just scared shitless.

I've run into situations where other good laggs are playing medium hands(like 80%) passive against me, but they play the extremes (trash~7% and monsters~13%) fast. It makes it pretty easy to figure out their hands, and that kind of info is rare against laggs.

Very good post Demi. Thats a valuble insight. You should turn it into a proper article with a couple of hand histories and then get it stickied.