The Lagg style

Ok, I'm getting the hang of this a bit. The "real poker" as my friends call it. Bluffing useless at 10NL? Turns out to be quite the falsehood. So my single-table 10NL is finally starting to look like something. Two days ago, after some inspiration from watching my friends play, I managed to put my BR from $23 to $93. Didn't play all too efficient, a sort of semi-tagg-lagg thing. I did learn quite a bit about transparency of play, the merit of high raises etc, so it was a good day. Yesterday I only got to play for a little while, started good (although still only the semi-tagg-lagg thing) but hit some sucky negative variance when for example my 71% to win a 3-way pot botched on me, I got AA when my opp hit a boat on the flop with his crappy 87o hand, etc. BR at $86 when I left to hang with friends. We chilled, drank some beer, watched champions league and talked a lot. Reading between the lines of the more intuitive views on poker he gives, finally I started to understand the true way of the Lagg style.

So today I thought about it some more. I got some ideas about why this works, even though it seems counter-intuitive, but in reality the odds DO justify it. It's just not the odds you learn about FTR here. So just now I played for a little less than an hour and a half at my usual single-table 10NL. BR is now up to $108. The Lagg style is really great, but I still have much to learn about it though. Not only is it a ton more fun than grinding and camping for the super hand or the set on your pp, you also don't play for pennies a day. Your variance is higher, but your average is way higher. Main reason at 10NL is ofcourse is that they suck, so putting them on edge with Lagg-style means they will start to play stupid with large amounts of cash instead of small amounts which they usually do. And that's ofcourse exactly what you want :)

I understand the agrro part. What is considered loose? No one person's deffinition is going to be the same as others, but in general.. Sorry I am looking to venture into different styles of play since I went
You finished in 1st place. X 2
You finished in 2nd place. X2
You finished in 4th place. X4
You finished in 7th place. X 4
You finished in 10th place.
All at $3 SnG
$48 Prize = $38.40 Cost... yes Showing +10 But all the work for only this little bit is driving me crazy... I need something better... If you do not want to disclose anything pertant to "your game" By no means do it...but a general rule(s) of how this should be done... As of Right now I am Tighter then I should be I feel.

Playing LAG in a micro limit cash game is stupid. When people cant fold why bother to try to represent something. Just bet for value and nothing else. =)

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Originally Posted by saxin

Playing LAG in a micro limit cash game is stupid. When people cant fold why bother to try to represent something. Just bet for value and nothing else. =)

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Originally Posted by saxin

Playing LAG in a micro limit cash game is stupid. When people cant fold why bother to try to represent something. Just bet for value and nothing else. =)

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What can I say to that besides that I'm really happy that a lot of people seem to think that, lol.

jackvance, no offense, but your sample size is way too small to jump into such conclusions.

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Originally Posted by TLR

jackvance, no offense, but your sample size is way too small to jump into such conclusions.

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Very true, that's why I'm basing this on the sample size of 3 friends of mine, of whom two play poker for years. I'm now mainly trying to get the gist of how they do their magic, so to speak.

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When people cant fold

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Every player who is not tilting can fold, even at 10NL. Here's an example of the hardest type, the reraise bluff. Not advised at 10NL for obvious reasons, and I've only used it a few times and so far always gotten a fold.

> beefbandito posted small blind ($0.05)
> Fruudiy posted big blind ($0.10)
> Game # 747,966,970 starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards

My hand: 4c5c

> Madgeishen folded
> thaigirl1459 called for $0.10
> snookmaster folded
> jackvance raised for $0.50
> beefbandito called for $0.45
> Fruudiy, you have 10 seconds to respond
> Fruudiy, you have 5 seconds to respond
> Fruudiy did not act in time and was folded
> thaigirl1459 folded
> Dealing the Flop(7dJh10h)
> beefbandito checked
> jackvance checked
> Dealing the turn(3c)
> beefbandito checked
> jackvance checked
> Dealing the river(2h)
> beefbandito bet for $0.60
> jackvance, you have 10 seconds to respond
> jackvance raised for $1.50
> beefbandito, you have 10 seconds to respond
> beefbandito folded
> jackvance shows a high card, Jack
(Jh10h7d5c4c)
> jackvance wins $3.15 with high card, Jack

That's not a reraise, firstly. It's the first raise of an initial bet.

Why aren't you cbetting the flop here?

Regardless, the members on this forum are entirely correct, and your small sample size is convincing you otherwise. 10NL players are on a whole loose-passives. That means "calling station." That's why a good player can run at some kind of ridiculous number like 25BB/100 and sustain it. And that's not playing LAG, my friend.

Next, why are you showing that hand to the table? Are you going to tighten up the rest of your time at the table?

Anyway, I do that too, and I'm not LAG (and I 9-table):

***** Hand History for Game 3895567697 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 05, 18:54:23 ET 2006
Table Flipped Up (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: BitznBites ( $13.10 )
Seat 2: SKAGIT22 ( $30 )
Seat 3: disbnikkatim ( $13.93 )
Seat 5: TayMegs ( $32.57 )
Seat 6: absinthe89 ( $32.70 )
Seat 7: rtampman ( $11.15 )
Seat 8: bigmott15 ( $53.65 )
Seat 9: rubythegreat ( $18.10 )
Seat 10: hayryde ( $19.55 )
Seat 4: MissedMe ( $24.85 )
MissedMe posts small blind [$0.10].
TayMegs posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MissedMe [ 4d 7d ]
>You have options at Table 96237 Table!.
absinthe89 folds.
rtampman folds.
rubythegreat folds.
hayryde calls [$0.25].
BitznBites folds.
SKAGIT22 folds.
disbnikkatim calls [$0.25].
MissedMe calls [$0.15].
>You have options at Table 96486 Table!.
TayMegs raises [$0.25].
>You have options at Table 96237 Table!.
hayryde calls [$0.25].
disbnikkatim calls [$0.25].
MissedMe calls [$0.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 6h, Jd ]
MissedMe checks.
TayMegs bets [$1].
hayryde calls [$1].
>You have options at Fine Swine Table!.
>You have options at Table 96509 Table!.
disbnikkatim calls [$1].
MissedMe raises [$5].
>You have options at Kikin Bass (No DP) Table!.
TayMegs folds.
hayryde folds.
disbnikkatim folds.
MissedMe shows [ 4d, 7d ] high card jack.
MissedMe wins $9.70 from the main pot with high card jack.
rtampman has left the table.

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Originally Posted by sejje

That's not a reraise, firstly. It's the first raise of an initial bet.

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Well, you know what I mean.

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Why aren't you cbetting the flop here?

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Because I had been doing that a lot. This incites slowplaying a lot of the time. So on occasions I have to switch it up and check. Take the free cards.

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Regardless, the members on this forum are entirely correct, and your small sample size is convincing you otherwise.

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I think you got me wrong. I'm not basing too much on my own results. I'm basing these on the results my friends, who play for years, have gotten with this playstyle. I'm just trying to deduce how it works now.

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And that's not playing LAG, my friend.

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Those friends of mine run way higher than that on the lower stakes, as LAGs, my friend.

Obviously they don't play there very much anymore now. Three weeks back, they turned their $100 deposit into $3.5k in a week's time. (cashed out $2k, blew the remaining $1.5k the week after).

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Next, why are you showing that hand to the table? Are you going to tighten up the rest of your time at the table?

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To pester them basically. If they loosen up, I can tighten up a bit. Additionally, it'll make calling my "real" raises with crap hands more alluring.

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Anyway, I do that too, and I'm not LAG (and I 9-table):

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No "one hand" makes a player a Lagg. Any Lagg hand could have been played by a Tagg. It's the continuation and relentlessness that are the differences.

But like I said I'm simply trying to learn. I'm not preaching to know anything yet. I've just observed people who do.

Now that to me doesn't look like you bluffed him, it looks like he went to the river and missed. I'm guessing he had AQ, AK of KQ and missed the straight. These fish lose by chasing anything, then they bet if they hit or fold if they miss. the only way to beat them long term (25000 hands for me, I've only been playing since Jan.) is bet for value and if they bet the river they hit something, not always best hand but they hit nonetheless. I can't tell ya how many times i've been stacked when I used to think I could bluff some fish that's thinking "I got $2 bucks in this pot I'm not folding my pair" and get beat by middle pair. They con't even see what you could have, they only play their hand. Stick to your strengths Jack, you've got the numbers down much better than I ever will, that's you advantage over these dimwits. They are long on deposits and short on game, take advantage. This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. And you keep chalking everything up to variance but not letting anything go long enough for the variance to even out.

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Now that to me doesn't look like you bluffed him, it looks like he went to the river and missed.

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My hand had 99.4% to lose a showdown vs any given hand. (only ties vs another 45). So he folded a better hand.. dunno, maybe bluff is not the term but how would you call it then?

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Stick to your strengths Jack, you've got the numbers down much better than I ever will, that's you advantage over these dimwits. They are long on deposits and short on game, take advantage.

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Heh, I have a whole new range of numbers to crunch. Seems like my learning phase is going to be extended a little bit after all, lol. My friends are raking in cash so quickly, yes with high variance, but with large profits.. I have a pretty good idea why this works, but I'm gonna need to calculate the odds to get the feel of it for myself. (since I lack the experience, so that's my way to catch up) Sucky thing is that these are pretty extensive calculations, whole ranges of hands vs whole ranges of flops kinda things. So don't feel like doing that now, but I'm sure I will some of these days, hehe.

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This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. And you keep chalking everything up to variance but not letting anything go long enough for the variance to even out.

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Hm, I think I may have given the wrong impression with my initial post, seeing these replies. I didn't mean to post my results as some sort of "proof" I'm right. I post results, because I simply always do that, and because quite frankly I'm a bit relieved my BR surpassed the 10 buy-ins mark. After having been at $10, that's quite understandable I think :). (ok ok I dropped a bit below $100 again just now) I'm also not trying to say I know how to play this Lagg-style thing. I was trying to express that I had observed people who do, that's all. And that I'm giving it a try myself now.

Be very careful with the people who claim to be winning at anything. People tend to forget the losses quickly, otherwise they would not come back. As an example, My sister thought she and her friend were break even bingo players until I told her otherwise, after long debate she had a separate bingo account and I offered to double anything over her initial $100 at the end of the year, she didn't make april 1st. Now I know that poker is different in the fact that you can twist odds in your favour i.e. pot odds and EV...., unlike most gambling games where the house always wins, and beleive me if the house didn't have the rake we wouldn't have poker. Now she want's to try hold-em instead, but she's not going to give up the bingo. My point is the numbers tell you how to win, not the short term "variance" that your friends may be winning at, at the moment. How often are they talking about the 3 months of losing continuous buy-ins or being stacked by the guy who caught the straight on the river to bust the set.

Jack

There is no doubt that Lagg style can work, we all seen pros do very successfully in this style.
The question is whether or not this style can work at $10 NL, if your friends play for years I doubt they play at that level

One of them is a winning player without a doubt. His brother and the other guy, not sure. I think the brother is not too far away in skill, the third guy however is catching up but probably 50NL material now.

The only problem with this one guy is that he is a gambling addict. On his own, he'll simply blow any money he has; Like this one time he blew his $5k BR (earned solemny through poker) in one day when his cat died and he had buried her in the back yard and then he went to play poker feeling totally out of it. He went a few stakes higher than usual, got a bad beat on a $1600 pot (AA got botched by a stupid lucky river longshot) and then tilted. Now, with the other guys there, like when they play together, this usually has a good calming effect on him, and then the bunch makes their profits. But despite him blowing sometimes thousands of dollars through sheer tilting or something, he still manages to get by on poker alone it seems.. atleast he doesn't work or do anything, so poker is the only place he could get the money he has from, lol..

I've also told him atleast four times how he could make a real solid living with some discipline etc, but he always replies that he knows that but that it's simply no use.

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There is no doubt that Lagg style can work, we all seen pros do very successfully in this style.
The question is whether or not this style can work at $10 NL, if your friends play for years I doubt they play at that level

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I've seen em play at 10NL.. some 3-4 weeks ago when they introduced me to poker and this one guy (the best of em) played on 10NL with me to teach me the ropes. It's a lot less Lagg ofcourse than he plays at the higher stakes ofcourse, I think he mainly switches to Lagg for shorter periods of time to get a rise out of the room.

But anyway, I'm trying different things you know :). Preparing myself for the higher stakes and such ;) My thinking is my guide but experience is my teacher.

So after the BR hit $108, I tried out pure Lagg uber-maniac style. Lotsa fun and really intensive to play. Just wanted to try it, even if 10NL doesn't really suit for it, to get it as a skill you know. Ofcourse, for this to work the cards do have to cooperate, because after a while no-one is folding anymore. And they didn't come at this time, which kinda sucked. Roll was down to $88.

So ok, then I played an hour and a half, maybe a bit more, basically reverting back to the semi-lagg-tagg thingie I played with two or three days ago. Basically it's Tagg but on occasions, like twice every three rounds around the table, you just hammer with random crap etc. Also I felt kinda bored playing like this, because it comes so natural, no need to think real hard, you just kinda hammer away.. so I opened two tables. One didn't really go my way, dunno, had a $4 loss there. The other compensated though, up $36 there. So the roll is now at a nice new high of $120.

Ugh I wanna move up a stake. But best to not be too hasty I guess.

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but on occasions, like twice every three rounds around the table, you just hammer with random crap etc.

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I do this every once in a while, so the semi-aware players think i'm a donk. I will call a missed flop all the way to the end with middle pair as long as it is cheap and in early possition or after checking from BB so i have to show my hand. that makes people think my above buy-in stack was a fluke hand or so they don't think I'm camping. Then watch how there is no need to slowplay AA or KK.

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I do this every once in a while, so the semi-aware players think i'm a donk.

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haha cool

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Originally Posted by jackvance

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And that's not playing LAG, my friend.

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Those friends of mine run way higher than that on the lower stakes, as LAGs, my friend.

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Running higher than 25ptbb/100? Incredibly doubtful, it can be done just not over a significant sample, especially not way higher.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

Obviously they don't play there very much anymore now. Three weeks back, they turned their $100 deposit into $3.5k in a week's time. (cashed out $2k, blew the remaining $1.5k the week after).

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The only way they did this is by playing way over their bankroll which is shown by being able to go broke the next week, these arent friends I would be learning from.

Anyways jack, you are just a beginner, playing "LAGG" is easy, understanding what you are doing and why and actually playing it well is not. In my opinion as players gain more experience they learn ways to add more hands into their playing range and learn how to play those hands profitably. A lagg [typically] isnt somebody who just started playing a bunch of hands and kept with it, its somebody who developed the ability to play more hands profitably. What VPIP and PFR percentages would you shoot for as a lagg? There is a difference between a lagg and a maniac.

Also, I cannot be convinced that laggish play is very profitable at the small stakes. For it to be profitable people have to try to put you on a hand, understand what you are repping, etc. At the micro stakes, players just dont do that. I would wager that my tag play is much more profitable at these stakes than your lag play.

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

tick to your strengths Jack, you've got the numbers down much better than I ever will, that's you advantage over these dimwits.

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Btw thanks for saying this. Was actually very helpful.

Ummm why are you playing lagg with only 10 buyins?

if sam farha played his superaggressive style at 10nl he undoubtedly would lose.

A LAgg relies on folding equity for a very large percentage of his profit. That equity, although it DOES exist at 10nl, doesn't existing enough to make the LAgg style profitable.


A LAgg's profit comes from making people fold top pair. NOBODY folds top pair at 10nl. Not even good players. When I played 10nl I rarely folded top pair because it usually would win against the dumbasses who tried to get aggressive with me there.

I used to think lagging at micro limits is unprofitable. I don't think that anymore. I know the opposite is true.

I think this hand illustrates why TAG valuebetting is so supirior to LAGging on loose passive tables



PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($25)
Button ($7.60)
SB ($10.50)
BB ($27.20)
UTG ($12.55)
UTG+1 ($45.60)
MP1 ($41)
MP2 ($24.50)
Hero ($25.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7:diamond:, 6:club:. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, CO (poster) calls $1, 3 folds, MP1 calls $1.

Flop: ($4.10) A:spade:, K:heart:, 2:diamond: (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $2.50, CO calls $2.50, MP1 calls $2.50.

Turn: ($11.60) 3:spade: (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets $1, MP1 calls $1, Hero folds.

River: ($13.60) Q:spade: (2 players)
MP1 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: $13.60

MP1 has 9h Ah (one pair, aces).
CO has Ks Td (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP1 wins $13.60.


You can try telling them that they should never have been in the pot, but I dont think it will work.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

I used to think lagging at micro limits is unprofitable. I don't think that anymore. I know the opposite is true.

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Sure, playing loose and aggressive poker can win at these levels. If you play a lot of hands and make the appropriate calls and laydowns against these dopey players you will win. But relying on folding equity through bluffs and semibluffs just won't work IMO.

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Originally Posted by Murd0c

Ummm why are you playing lagg with only 10 buyins?

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Well:
- Training new skills. Seeing how/why/when it works, and how/why/when not.
- While it's more exhausting than simple Tagg, it's good to hone reading skills and the like
- It's definately more fun than camping for the nuts
- You really learn to read flops regardless of your hand
- I mainly use it now, either infrequently on a more passive table to keep a certain level of high bidding up; Or in a short period of time on a tighter table to loosen them up. On loose aggressive tables it's no use. So basically I use it to make the tables loose aggressive.

And it's 15 buy-ins now :)

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I used to think lagging at micro limits is unprofitable. I don't think that anymore. I know the opposite is true.

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Exactly. Depends entirely on the table though. Playing Lagg on a loose aggressive table for example is suicide. On a tight passive table however it can work wonders. Especially if one or two go bananas on the "fun" of bidding high with crap hands. I've seen it happen, actually just now was another case. He funded me for $10.

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I think this hand illustrates why TAG valuebetting is so supirior to LAGging on loose passive tables

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Ehm, see.. any one hand really proves nothing. I can show you a dozen hands to prove everything I want.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

I can show you a dozen hands to prove everything I want.

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Show me a dozen hands where you make someone fold top pair at 10nl and I won't say another word.

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Originally Posted by Renton

Show me a dozen hands where you make someone fold top pair at 10nl and I won't say another word.

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It happens, but you have to make sure your opp here is a sensible player and that the flop is scary enough. Problem is ofcourse, how am I supposed to prove he had TP when he folded? I just had a guy fold top two pair though, on a flush-scary board. He said what he had after and asked me if I had the flush. To not embarass him too much I said "yes" and he said "figures".

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Bluffing useless at 10NL? Turns out to be quite the falsehood

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Why bluff a calling station/poor player when you can get that same idiot all in with tp in a raised pot when hes so far behind its mad.

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Show me a dozen hands where you make someone fold top pair at 10nl and I won't say another word.

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I can't get anyone to fold middle or bottom pair. Doesn't matter what I raise,5 bb or9bb, they call to see the flop if they have paint and shit. If they hit the shit they call to the river, no matter what they have. And if any table has one or two that play better than that, I leave. There is twenty tables waiting with eight guys that do.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Why bluff a calling station/poor player when you can get that same idiot all in with tp in a raised pot when hes so far behind its mad.

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Who said anything about trying to bluff out a calling station?

The Lagg style is used to open up a table; Make the tights loosen up and make high aggressive bidding the standard. When this is either accomplished or already the case on the table, no need to "Lagg it up". Specific bluffs are reserved for those who have proven to be sensible players who can lay down a hand. Half the time, there's 1 or 2 at the tables on the site I play at.

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I can't get anyone to fold middle or bottom pair. Doesn't matter what I raise,5 bb or9bb, they call to see the flop if they have paint and shit. If they hit the shit they call to the river, no matter what they have. And if any table has one or two that play better than that, I leave. There is twenty tables waiting with eight guys that do.

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What site is this? I'm thinking about expanding to other sites, and do some bonus whoring in the process. :)

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Originally Posted by jackvance

Specific bluffs are reserved for those who have proven to be sensible players who can lay down a hand. Half the time, there's 1 or 2 at the tables on the site I play at.

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you need to switch sites. When you are rolled for 25nl and move to Party, you CAN NOT use any of these concepts. If you do you will crash and burn. The loosepassiveness of party will not allow for stone bluffs.

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Originally Posted by Renton

you need to switch sites.

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I'm getting that impression more and more from what you guys say.

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When you are rolled for 25nl and move to Party, you CAN NOT use any of these concepts. If you do you will crash and burn. The loosepassiveness of party will not allow for stone bluffs.

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4-table Tagg and you never need to work again? :)

Oh yeah, it may also be worth to note that I'm talking about 6max as always. Aggression is of more value compared to 10max ofcourse. Multitabling is harder though.. just tried 3tabling, god my head hurts bad now. You constantly have to act..

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Originally Posted by jackvance

Oh yeah, it may also be worth to note that I'm talking about 6max as always. Aggression is of more value compared to 10max ofcourse. Multitabling is harder though.. just tried 3tabling, god my head hurts bad now. You constantly have to act..

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You don't have to multi as much for sixmax because the hands play much faster.

1 table of six max is almost the equivalent of two tables of full ring in terms of hands played.

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Originally Posted by Renton

You don't have to multi as much for sixmax because the hands play much faster.

1 table of six max is almost the equivalent of two tables of full ring in terms of hands played.

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Yeah I came to a somewhat similar conclusion just now after thinking "how can people ever 4-table or something like this??" In 6max it just goes too fast, way too fast; Plus I really need my reads, that's also more important in 6max than in 10max I think. Man that was a hellish experience to 3-table 6max.. my head is still spinning now lol. Maybe I should go lie down or something. (but friends are picking me up in half an hour)

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

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Bluffing useless at 10NL? Turns out to be quite the falsehood

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Why bluff a calling station/poor player when you can get that same idiot all in with tp in a raised pot when hes so far behind its mad.

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Careful well timed bluffs with a show and chuckle are very potent tilt weapons against these players. It's obviously not a good idea to try bluffing someone off top pair, or even KK with an A on the board. You need to make sure you have a lot of fold equity when you bluff is all.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Careful well timed bluffs with a show and chuckle are very potent tilt weapons against these players.

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Something like this?

I don't have the HH here at work but heres how it played out.

6max 50nl table

I pick up 23o on the button. I have been playing fairly tight. Loose aggressive/passive Villain in HJ has 50.00. I cover.

Villain raises to 2. Folds to me and I reraise to 6. Folds to him and he calls.

Flop: 479 rainbow

He checks; I bet the pot. He folds and I show.


Is this an example of what you are saying rondavu? Or a more invested bluff than that?

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Originally Posted by Renton

if sam farha played his superaggressive style at 10nl he undoubtedly would lose.

A LAgg relies on folding equity for a very large percentage of his profit. That equity, although it DOES exist at 10nl, doesn't existing enough to make the LAgg style profitable.


A LAgg's profit comes from making people fold top pair. NOBODY folds top pair at 10nl. Not even good players. When I played 10nl I rarely folded top pair because it usually would win against the dumbasses who tried to get aggressive with me there.

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Youre very correct as I've heard him even say that he wouldn't win against bad players

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Originally Posted by jackvance

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I used to think lagging at micro limits is unprofitable. I don't think that anymore. I know the opposite is true.

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Exactly. Depends entirely on the table though. Playing Lagg on a loose aggressive table for example is suicide. On a tight passive table however it can work wonders. Especially if one or two go bananas on the "fun" of bidding high with crap hands. I've seen it happen, actually just now was another case. He funded me for $10.

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Now you are getting somewhere. Lagging works as long as you pick the right table. Playing tight ABC poker is perfect for a manic/loose-passive/aggro table.
My biggest realisation lately is that to be a truly good poker player, you dont need a 'style' of play (like LAGG), but you need to be truly adaptable to all situations. I'd seen this advice on here before, just never really took it to heart until recently...

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Originally Posted by renegaderob1

Now you are getting somewhere. Lagging works as long as you pick the right table. Playing tight ABC poker is perfect for a manic/loose-passive/aggro table.
My biggest realisation lately is that to be a truly good poker player, you dont need a 'style' of play (like LAGG), but you need to be truly adaptable to all situations. I'd seen this advice on here before, just never really took it to heart until recently...

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Yah. That's why I lagged for a day or two, even if the table didn't suit for it. Get the feel for it, acquire it as a skill. Now I find myself going into tables Tagg, and when the table annoys me cuz they aren't calling my raises or something, I'll probably rag on the table a bit to make them loosen up and get accustomed to high bids. Also, as I've seen from my friends, Lagg gains in importance greatly as you go up in stakes. And since the Lagg style requires different reads on both your opponents and especially the flop than regular ABC poker does, I think it's definately a skill you should train to have in your repertoire.