Playing the nuts OOP and extracting value

Ive been having problems lately in playing hands like the following.
i play 200 nl at stars.
Limp mp1 with 55, pf raiser from co makes it 5 bb to go, i call.

flop comes down A 5 8 with 2 hearts. i check he bets 14, i call
(should i lead out and bet hear to disguise my hand? this guys a thinking player.)
turn come 10 spades. he bets 30, i check raise to 70. he thinks for awhile and folds.

2nd situation:
i have AA from BB. good player makes it 4 bb to go from mp. i re raise to 9 bb's. he calls.
frop comes down AQ4 raimbo.
how the heck do i play this?
so i play it the same as the last hand by check raising the turn.
i think he might've had AK because he thought a long time before folding and saying, " you've got a set huh?"

I dont like my play being as transparent as this...
when i have position, i have no problems. i think i extract value well.
however, in positions like this, i find myself not knowing exactly how to play it.
against a maniac/overly aggressive player slow playing makes sense.
it seems though, that against good thinking players betting out would be a good idea to trap these players.
my PT stats are 20/4.5 so that probably doesnt help my action either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by homeboy604

Ive been having problems lately in playing hands like the following.
i play 200 nl at stars.
Limp mp1 with 55, pf raiser from co makes it 5 bb to go, i call.

flop comes down A 5 8 with 2 hearts. i check he bets 14, i call
(should i lead out and bet hear to disguise my hand? this guys a thinking player.)
turn come 10 spades. he bets 30, i check raise to 70. he thinks for awhile and folds.

2nd situation:
i have AA from BB. good player makes it 4 bb to go from mp. i re raise to 9 bb's. he calls.
frop comes down AQ4 raimbo.
how the heck do i play this?
so i play it the same as the last hand by check raising the turn.
i think he might've had AK because he thought a long time before folding and saying, " you've got a set huh?"

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Hand 1 you can do the check/call flop, check/raise turn thing but thats an obvious set IMO. Ive been experimenting with sometimes betting out just over 1/2 pot when I hit a set with an A high flop against a preflop raiser. If they dont have the A you arent getting much anyway. If they do have the A they will often reraise huge.

Hand 2 I just play it like I hit top pair. Thats a tough board. If you play it like JJ youll get a bet or two but he'll get suspicious when you dont fold. I think the best bet is to bet your normal top pair amount against a non-donk. Hopefully he has AQ, AK, QQ and wants to stack you.

The reason I play it like this is donks with AJ will call down anyway. Decent players who hit the A might raise to see where they are and it gives AQ, AK, QQ a chance to put in a nice raise. A decent player with any less than TPTK isnt paying anything on that board anyway.

If you are against someone really hopeless then check. Hopefully they bet and then you can raise their bet to 3x. They will feel committed to seeing the next card. Then you bet jut over 1/2 pot on the next card (hopefully enough so that the rest of their stack is about half the river pot). They feel committed again and call with AJ. Then you put them allin on the river (or half pot if their stack is too big). They feel committed and call with AJ.

You wont find those guys very often though.

Check raising the turn is a very standard line for a a lot of players with set, so standard that you won't stack a decent opp's TPTK.

1st hand.
Raising PF if you first in is a good start (more so in 6-max). As played your on the right line with leading, If your raised then you have many options to build the pot (3-bet, lead turn, ck-rs turn) which you can alternate according to the situation and to stop players getting a read on you. If you take a similar line with strong draws it will mask your overall play even further. Also, going back to the hand, if the third heart falls before you get the money in, it could kill your action.

2nd hand.
Its going to be very tough to win a big pot on that board, one way to help this would be to raise to about 12BB PF. You have announced your hand without charging for it. Any PP is getting great implied odds to out-flop you and as most hands will fold the flop, you need to build the pot while you can. On the flop I'd just lead and expect a fold.

i like usually betting right out rather than trying to setup a checkraise. i can get away with it because im an aggressive player (ie, my opponents will be unable to determine my strength because i would bet out in the same spot with a lot of hands).

this way you build the pot while at the same time disguising your hand. thats about all you can hope for OOP. if he folds, and you 'waste' a set or as below, the nut straight, oh well. finally, im afraid that the turn card will bring a scare card for opp, so i want to strike while the iron is hot.

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2

Stack sizes:
UTG: $213.40
UTG+1: $53
MP1: $100.20
MP2: $254.20
MP3: $238.80
CO: $200.20
Button: $189.20
siknd: $135.90
BB: $316.40

Pre-flop: (9 players) siknd is SB with J:club: T:spade:
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $2, CO calls $2, Button folds, siknd calls $1, BB checks.

Flop: 8:diamond: 9:diamond: Q:club: ($10, 5 players)
siknd bets $5, BB folds, MP1 calls $5, MP3 calls $5, CO calls $5.

Turn: 5:club: ($30, 4 players)
siknd bets $19, 2 folds, CO calls $19.

River: 6:club: ($68, 2 players)
siknd checks, CO bets $50, siknd raises all-in $109.9, CO folds.
Uncalled bets: $59.9 returned to siknd.

Results:
Final pot: $168

i think my river is a good example of the latest FT article by Flack. i knew this player had diamonds like i know my name. i should have just called the river to embarrass him, but thought there was enough of a chance he had two pr that i put it all in.

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/proLessons.php?lesson=54

because check calling and check raising the turn is a standard line for a set, i usualy bet out, especially on a flush or straight draw coordinated board. it also gives you pot control as OOP you bet and build the pot. the only time i would check a set is on a VERY uncoordinated board, rainbow and very distant gaps between cards. but yeah, try betting out with your made hands, they'll usualy pay off. also if there are draws, try to make them pay for them, i saw you checked both times with a straight and flush draw. they catch their heart, and your commited to call their turn bet trying to fill up on the river with no potcontrol, or paying them off on the river.

If you want to stack someone...lead the flop. Who in their right mind bets out trips? Your opponents will never expect it and will put you on something else. You should especially lead the flop with an A on the board...everyone loves aces and he will have trouble laying it down. You will take a Noobs stack with TPTK and a more seasoned players stack if he hits two pair.

yah, I'm definitely leading out strong on this board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by siknd

i like usually betting right out rather than trying to setup a checkraise. i can get away with it because im an aggressive player (ie, my opponents will be unable to determine my strength because i would bet out in the same spot with a lot of hands).

this way you build the pot while at the same time disguising your hand. thats about all you can hope for OOP. if he folds, and you 'waste' a set or as below, the nut straight, oh well. finally, im afraid that the turn card will bring a scare card for opp, so i want to strike while the iron is hot.

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2

Stack sizes:
UTG: $213.40
UTG+1: $53
MP1: $100.20
MP2: $254.20
MP3: $238.80
CO: $200.20
Button: $189.20
siknd: $135.90
BB: $316.40

Pre-flop: (9 players) siknd is SB with J:club: T:spade:
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $2, CO calls $2, Button folds, siknd calls $1, BB checks.

Flop: 8:diamond: 9:diamond: Q:club: ($10, 5 players)
siknd bets $5, BB folds, MP1 calls $5, MP3 calls $5, CO calls $5.

Turn: 5:club: ($30, 4 players)
siknd bets $19, 2 folds, CO calls $19.

River: 6:club: ($68, 2 players)
siknd checks, CO bets $50, siknd raises all-in $109.9, CO folds.
Uncalled bets: $59.9 returned to siknd.

Results:
Final pot: $168

i think my river is a good example of the latest FT article by Flack. i knew this player had diamonds like i know my name. i should have just called the river to embarrass him, but thought there was enough of a chance he had two pr that i put it all in.

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/proLessons.php?lesson=54

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So against good players you bet to induce a raise on the flop, if you think the standard play wont work.

Against crap players you can still check, check-raise and they'll probably not be able to lay down overpair, TPTK, or whatever.
Theres probably a point to NOT leading out against a crap player. This is because he is .... a 'calling station' CALLING all the way not raising if you are leading strong. And if you start checking to induce a bet he might just be so scared and not do it.

I bet out both, normally if it's a middle set, a little less that the pure nuts like the AA hand.

However, in situation 1, you mentioned 2 hearts on the flop... maybe I'm just a wimp, but this makes me wanna bet 3/4 pot here.