25NL - Can you find a fold here?

Two calls before me, I raise to 4xBB with QQ and get 3 callers. Flop comes A and two low flush cards. I was weary of a C-Bet because of so many people in the hand that I figured one had an Ace, but the two players who acted before me were tight and would fold to a cbet and if they had something Im confident theyd raise. So my plan on the flop was to CBet and then fold to a raise. Turn comes another Ace, giving 3 to the flush, I check and then MP2 makes a very small bet. Should I have folded here? I was getting odds for a flush which I thought was good here and then 2 outs for a fullhouse, so I called. On the river I make the flush, and check hoping MP2 will check behind, he doesnt and instead beats about 2/3 of the pot leaving like $5 behind. This bet worries me as I feel like its asking for a raise, but I have the 2nd nut flush here, and I cant imagine any Kc would stick around. KK would have reraised preflop, AK I feel would have raised somewhere in there, so I think my hand was good and make the call, but dont push because I cant imagine a better hand is folding here or a worse hand calling. How would you have played this? I think the only place I can find a fold is the river, even then Im not sure. Is my thinking flawed?

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $8.65
UTG+1: $22.45
Hero: $35.20
MP2: $26.15
MP3: $9.60
CO: $61.50
Button: $40.75
SB: $47.70
BB: $11.50

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with Q:club: Q:heart:
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1, MP2 calls $1, 3 folds, SB calls $0.9, BB folds, UTG calls $0.75, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: A:heart: 4:club: 3:club: ($4.5, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 calls $3, 2 folds.

Turn: A:club: ($10.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $3.5, Hero calls $3.5.

River: T:club: ($17.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $13.5, Hero calls $13.5.

Results:
Final pot: $44.5

Looks like AT caught their house. Could be wrong, but that's the only thing I could think of that played that line like it was. I'm not too familiar with the lower stakes scene anymore though, so my thinking could be way off.

I think your play is fine on all streets. The flop c-bet is questionable perhaps.

EDIT: Oh yeah found one more thing. Raise bigger preflop. 1 dollar isn't folding speculative hands.

It's true that you would have heard from AK and KK before but he could always hold Kxcc. My guess here would be that you didn't lost to a flush but you lost to a house and probably A4, the reason I guess this is from the very small turn bet that seemed to want a call even though the river could bring 4 clubs.

You have to call $13.50 to win $31 so you're getting ~2.4:1 on this call and I really don't see this being good 1 in ~3.4 times.

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Originally Posted by Renton

I think your play is fine on all streets. The flop c-bet is questionable perhaps.

EDIT: Oh yeah found one more thing. Raise bigger preflop. 1 dollar isn't folding speculative hands.

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Yea, Ive learned that, and this hand kind of brought that point home. Mentally I just hate raising to maybe $1.5 and seeing my QQ take just the blinds, I hate thinking that my opponents need hands to pay me off too. What would you raise to with QQ? What about AA or KK? I know it isnt the same size everytime, but what kind of betting range would you have here? Preflop that is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andy-akb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

I think your play is fine on all streets. The flop c-bet is questionable perhaps.

EDIT: Oh yeah found one more thing. Raise bigger preflop. 1 dollar isn't folding speculative hands.

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Yea, Ive learned that, and this hand kind of brought that point home. Mentally I just hate raising to maybe $1.5 and seeing my QQ take just the blinds, I hate thinking that my opponents need hands to pay me off too. What would you raise to with QQ? What about AA or KK? I know it isnt the same size everytime, but what kind of betting range would you have here? Preflop that is.

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No matter what hand you have, if its worth raising then you should raise what ever amount you think will get 1-2 callers MINIMUM.

Raise AA the same raise as KK, QQ, AJ, KQ, TT. There is a discussion about this in a thread JackVance created (I think its entitled "Reasonable Expectations"). Every time you get a hand worth raising, raise it like you would AA. This is how you get people to pay you off every time you have it. Players like Fnord get action with their AA because their raising range is very wide. Fnord, depending on position, will raise with any pair, KT+, AT+, QJ and etc. and he raises all of it the same way as AA. You can imagine how confusing it must be for your opponent, when you raise and he's thinking "hmm he could have any number of hands, because he raises alot, but its always the same raise"

The only way you should vary the size of your preflop raises is base on the amount of money in the pot. The more dead money from the limpers, the more you should raise, generally.

At 25nl, your standard raise should be 1.25 or 1.5 depending on your table. At a loose site like party, 1.5 is necessary. At a site like Stars or Empire where 1.5 won't get called by anything but AA, 1.25 will do. This is your standard raise if no one has yet entered the pot. If there are a few limpers, its necessary to raise more. Generally one big blind per limper past the first one is sufficient. Ex. if there are three limpers before you at 25nl, you should raise to 2.00 on party poker.

By the way, don't be too upset if your raise with QQ+ only takes down the blinds. With big pairs, you only want to be called by other premium hands that yours dominates. The only way you are getting paid off with AA, is if you get called by AK and he flops a pair, or if you get called by JJ-KK and the flop is rags. Other than these scenarios you don't stand to win a big pot with AA.

Renton. How much do you cbet, and on what flops do you like to do it/ avoid doing it? It seems you will lose alot by raising that much and not taking down some missed flops.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Renton. How much do you cbet, and on what flops do you like to do it/ avoid doing it? It seems you will lose alot by raising that much and not taking down some missed flops.

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I don't cbet too much. Here's what I look for in a cbetting situation:

1. Heads up, or two opponents maximum.
2. If I raise limpers preflop, and I am about to cbet, I look for a high card flop like AJ8, regardless of my cards, where there will be at least two overcards to villains pocket pair or drawing hand.
3. If I raise in EP and get a cold caller, then I'd rather see a flop of all low cards, because its more likely he has a hand like AJ+ or KQ than in scenario #2.
3. Weak tight players, I don't cbet if villain has a Went to Showdown of more than 35 percent.
4. Pair flops like 977, J22, AA7, where its that much less likely someone connected.
5. And any flop that connects with my hand, since I almost always bet my hand on the flop.

The amount I c-bet is quite simple. If the flop is rainbow and uncoordinated, I bet 2/3 the pot. If the flop is two tone or has an obvious straight draw, I bet the pot.

If my cbet misses, and I suspect I am beat by a pocket pair or something, I just stop, and check/fold. If my cbet misses but I suspect villain is drawing and didn't hit, then I continue to bet hard as if I have made my hand.

Preflop i'd bump it up a bit more with 2 limpers ahead of you. Normally in these situations I just make a pot-sized raise. I like a flop check most of the times here. It's 4-way, you don't have much money invested at all, and you can't even touch top pair.

As played, turn, meh, call.

River you only beat a bluff, no worse hand ever bets for value here. I'd just fold, barring an exception read (ie villain is a maniac).