confused

Hi all

I'm new to Holdem, but quite intrigued. But my results were kinda flaky, so I stumbled upon this great site, which taught me a lot.

While I'm trying to digest this information - it's a lot to take in - I have something I am particularly confused about.

The thing I'm confused about are pocket pairs in relation to high-hitters like big slick.

AA and KK are obviously the best hands you can get, all-in material.. and I used to think of AK (preferably suited) the same way.

But if I pitch AK against the lower pocket pair (22).. the odds come up 50/50.. so it's a cointoss who will win this. Making the AK suited adds less than 2% to its winning odds. And it gets even worse if I pitch say AQ vs 55.. then the pocket pair wins 55-45.

And if I put AQ vs "anything" and 55 vs "anything", then we 64-36. Pitching 55 vs anything yields a win in 60.5% of the cases.

Ofcourse these are just statistics.. the way to interpret them in a real game is what counts. I also realize these statistics are when you play it down to the river.

Another added bonus to a pocket pair that I can see - and which adds more confusion about the real value of two heavy hitters - is that a pocket pair plays a lot easier. The set drops? (1/8 times) You can milk the other party dry. The set doesn't win? Big slick won't stand to gain much here.

But then, the lower pocket pairs don't even show in the group 0-6 listing I found on this site. But in practice, a mere 55 will beat out AKs.. a little more than a cointoss, but still. One is placed in group 1 (bet em high!) and the other is nowhere to be found.

Hence my confusion. The only reason I can think of to use big slick is because it beats "any hand" a bit more often.. so you have to scare away the pocket pairs preflop?

Anyway.. if someone could shed some light into this matter, it would be really appreciated since I feel kinda lost now.. tournament coming up in 3 hours and I'm not sure what to even do with two unpaired high cards anymore.

(similarly suited vs unsuited.. seems like it only adds 2% to win.. but ofcourse these are again just statistics)

/confused soul

The grouping is based on domination. Domination is, in case you didn't know, when one hand renders one of the cards in the opposing hand useless a la AK vs AQ, or when a pocket pair is higher than both of the opposing cards a la AA vs KQ, or AA vs KK.

55 is grouped much lower than AK for this reason.

AK is only dominated by AA and KK, for a total of 16 hands (aa and kk are each dealt 8 ways)

55 is dominated by 66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK, and AA, for a total of 72 hands.

More hands dominate 55 than do AK, so its lower on the list.

1. AA (dominated by no hand)
2. KK (dominated by 8 hands)
3. QQ (dominated by 16 hands)
4. AK (dominated by 16 hands)
5. JJ (dominated by 24 hands)

and so on and so forth

does that answer your question?

Yeah it does, thanks a lot.

But this does kinda make things tricky the way I see it. So AK is ranked pretty high.. but if it comes to a face-off and the other guy is holding 66, you better have TT than AK since in the latter case he has marginally better odds on you to win.

But then when you're on the receiving end of a lower pocket pair, and it comes to a face-off, you're in heaps of trouble if he has a higher pocket pair.


So to summarize from this information.. when you're holding AK or AQ or something, you HAVE TO bet big at preflop to weed out the lower pocket pairs.. because if it comes to a face-off it's a cointoss, and you stand to gain little and risk to lose a lot because of the nature of the cards.

But from the side of the pocket pair.. facing a big preflop raise.. this could also mean he has you dominated very easily.. so it's not very profitable to call this, unless you want to take the risk.. and if it comes to a showdown, you better pray he has unpaired cards.

So with pocket pair, better just try to sneak in low-cost and hope the set flops.. and after that calculate pot odds for your set, which are abysmal so probably best to fold out unless the other guy lets you have a look for free. Ok.. it's all starting to make a little more sense to me now.

Sry for rambling, trying to organize my thoughts :)

You are oversimplifying things I think. Its not all about which hand has better odds to win. Thats only part of it.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

when you're holding AK or AQ or something, you HAVE TO bet big at preflop to weed out the lower pocket pairs.. because if it comes to a face-off it's a cointoss, and you stand to gain little and risk to lose a lot because of the nature of the cards.

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Raising preflop with AK doesn't weed out lower PP's. It only weeds out trash hands like Q8s. Pairs still call to play for their set. The only reason you raise with AK is to weed out trash hands and to establish control of the hand. In fact, if there are any pocket pairs out there when you raise (which there usually is), you are raising with AK as a slight underdog, and you don't really care about that.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

But from the side of the pocket pair.. facing a big preflop raise.. this could also mean he has you dominated very easily.. so it's not very profitable to call this, unless you want to take the risk.. and if it comes to a showdown, you better pray he has unpaired cards.

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When call a preflop raise with a small pair, it is irrelevant whether or not you are dominated. In fact, you hope the raiser has you dominated with AA or QQ or something.

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Originally Posted by jackvance

and after that calculate pot odds for your set, which are abysmal so probably best to fold out unless the other guy lets you have a look for free.

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You can and should call raises outside your 8:1 pot odds requirement with small pairs. The reason for this is because you aren't playing for the money in the pot, you are playing for the opponents whole stack, which you will be taking most of the time if you hit your set and he has an overpair to the board. This is called implied odds. Do a forum search to learn more.

Also, another thing to think about is all the dead money in the pot. Say you have a big stack and AK. A medium-short stack goes all in after a bunch of limpers with what you suspect to be a small pair. Sure you are a slight underdog to win this, but keep in mind all of the limpers' money in the pot. If you reraise to isolate, all that dead money is free to take, and it makes your call very profitable.

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Originally Posted by Renton

You are oversimplifying things I think. Its not all about which hand has better odds to win. Thats only part of it.

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Yeah I'm trying to fit the pieces of the puzzles from the odds now.

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Raising preflop with AK doesn't weed out lower PP's. It only weeds out trash hands like Q8s. Pairs still call to play for their set. The only reason you raise with AK is to weed out trash hands and to establish control of the hand. In fact, if there are any pocket pairs out there when you raise (which there usually is), you are raising with AK as a slight underdog, and you don't really care about that.

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Well, you should make it unappealing to him right? Since the risk is that he takes your stack, and he can do so 1 times out of 8.. So you don't care about that?

Or are you gonna play it calm and fold if pressured too much with a AK/AQ? Which then in turn would make you susceptible to many bluffs..

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When call a preflop raise with a small pair, it is irrelevant whether or not you are dominated. In fact, you hope the raiser has you dominated with AA or QQ or something.

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Ah ofcourse you are right.. I was talking from the theoretical viewpoint that it'd be played out to the river (ie all-in showdown). But that is probably not very realistic unless you want to make a last stand, like in MTT and the blinds are eating you alive.

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You can and should call raises outside your 8:1 pot odds requirement with small pairs. The reason for this is because you aren't playing for the money in the pot, you are playing for the opponents whole stack, which you will be taking most of the time if you hit your set and he has an overpair to the board. This is called implied odds. Do a forum search to learn more.

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Yes I very well understand that concept.. and it makes the calculations so much harder. So you're saying that I really should be raising with pocket pairs - if the other guy has a large enough stack to fund me ofcourse? Because usually I just toss em.

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Also, another thing to think about is all the dead money in the pot. Say you have a big stack and AK. A medium-short stack goes all in after a bunch of limpers with what you suspect to be a small pair. Sure you are a slight underdog to win this, but keep in mind all of the limpers' money in the pot. If you reraise to isolate, all that dead money is free to take, and it makes your call very profitable.

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Yeah ok, but from the AK viewpoint (or even rockets) aren't you afraid of the lower pocket pairs taking everything you have? Or how do you deal with that?

Experience? :P

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Well, you should make it unappealing to him right? Since the risk is that he takes your stack, and he can do so 1 times out of 8.. So you don't care about that?

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Yes. The idea is to make it as expensive for the small pair to suck out as possible.

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Or are you gonna play it calm and fold if pressured too much with a AK/AQ? Which then in turn would make you susceptible to many bluffs.

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Yes. There are tell-tale mannerisms that most players exude when they are playing a set, and you just have to pick up on them. This takes experience. There are certain situations where you'd be happy to play for stacks with TPTK.

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Yes I very well understand that concept.. and it makes the calculations so much harder. So you're saying that I really should be raising with pocket pairs - if the other guy has a large enough stack to fund me ofcourse? Because usually I just toss em.

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You should rarely raise with small pairs, unless you are in late position and going for a steal. Pairs are typically played passively, e.g. limp/call, and then dump on the flop when you don't make your set.

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Yeah ok, but from the AK viewpoint (or even rockets) aren't you afraid of the lower pocket pairs taking everything you have? Or how do you deal with that? Experience?

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:D

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Originally Posted by Renton

:D

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Yeah I'm first trying to get the basic odd-implied strategies down.. then I plan on looking into reading tables, reading players, tells, advanced strategies to suck someone in or know when you have to bail out.

Step by step.

Thanks for the advice.

Stick with the rule of 10:1 when dealing with PP (lower than 10s)....you and your opponent must have 10 times the size of the raise in order to play these hands profitably. I always limp and call one raise pre-flop with low PP as long as the 10:1 rule applies. Trips will be where most of your profit comes from....

The problem with low PP's comes on the flop since there are always overs on the board...and this is also where high unpaired cards get their value...lets say you hold AK and your opponent holds 55. You raise preflop and he calls. Flop comes Q, 9, 3...you bet...55 has to fold.

As for AI late in tourneys when the blinds are high - this is where your stats come in...55 is great to push since if called you are probably in a coin-flip.

Do not overbet your AA and KK preflop...this will tell everyone what you have...not a good thing. Your only protection is the realization that AA and KK are not invincible hands....don't play them as such. Play them strong but always be aware that the hand is not unbeatable.

Jackvance. I think you are forgetting that in a real poker game the cards arent face up :).

If they were then you would get allin with 55 against AK everytime, espectially with some dead money in the pot. The problem is in a real game you never know if its AA, KK, QQ, or AK that you are up against with 55. You cant just put people on a hand. You have to put them on a range of hands, and 55 does pretty poorly against that range. Those times you are up against AK you are a cointoss and basically break even. Those times you are against a higher pair you will win very rarely.

Even if we know he will only get allin preflop with AK, AA, and KK you are in very bad shape.


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 39.1082 % 38.89% 00.22% { 5c5d }
Hand 2: 60.8918 % 60.67% 00.22% { KK+, AKs, AKo }


low PPs play well because you can "set or forget" with them, so you dont lose much when you lose but you hopefully win alot when you win. For this reason you need to see plenty of cheap flops with them.

AK wins lots of small pots but isnt usually very good in a big pot (with only TPTK).

Those groups arent just about which hand is "better". The hands are grouped together based on hands that play similarly.

A well played 55 will be much more profitable than a badly played AK.

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Originally Posted by dj newman

Stick with the rule of 10:1 when dealing with PP (lower than 10s)....you and your opponent must have 10 times the size of the raise in order to play these hands profitably. I always limp and call one raise pre-flop with low PP as long as the 10:1 rule applies.

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Ah will remember that and try it out.

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As for AI late in tourneys when the blinds are high - this is where your stats come in...55 is great to push since if called you are probably in a coin-flip.

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That's what I've been seeing lately, and which had me confused.. but now I get it (somewhat better atleast).

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Originally Posted by Pelion

If they were then you would get allin with 55 against AK everytime, espectially with some dead money in the pot. The problem is in a real game you never know if its AA, KK, QQ, or AK that you are up against with 55. You cant just put people on a hand. You have to put them on a range of hands, and 55 does pretty poorly against that range. Those times you are up against AK you are a cointoss and basically break even. Those times you are against a higher pair you will win very rarely.

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Yeah I totally missed out on the dominant nature of a higher pair.

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Those groups arent just about which hand is "better". The hands are grouped together based on hands that play similarly.

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ic.. not too sure atm how this works but I'll try to figure it out from playing some more :)