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I <3 you aokrongly.
Ridiculously good posts. I swear everyone one of ur posts should get stickied.
By the way, that chart you sent me, I pull it out every time I play a SNG and I get lost. It brings me back to my roots. THank you very much.
Outstanding post Aok!
In my opinion, anyone who doesn't take this on board, or somehow choses to ignore what is said here, will simply learn the hard way.
From a personal p.o.v., I can chart many of the things you have identified as things I did and, if I am frankly honest with myself (as all poker players should be), I am only recently, gradually identifying and eliminating.
One minor example of this would be last night. I had my KK cracked by 10 4 suited. Was I annoyed? Yes. Did I feel like hurling abuse at the guy who did it? Of course.
However, I took a great deal of pleasure in my reaction to it. I am the first to admit that I have a pretty bad temper and six months ago I would have been steaming BIG TIME and would have promptly gone and lost a shit-load more money. Last night however, I shrugged it off and told myself that I would take that situation any day of the week, because in the long term, I am going to win.
It is only through posts and advice from players like Aok and others that my game has really come on in the last couple of weeks. I am in no way a pro player and I doubt I ever will be. I am a recreational player but I am a player who wants to win. Hell, why should my CDs, DVDs, iPod, Vacation, new clothes etc come out of my salary?!! Let the mugs who don't heed this advice pay for it.
Thanks again Aok!
Great post aok,
I played my first real money online game last night and already I can see that what you say is spot on.
Before I played last night I had spent a lot of time on this site and others trying to garnish information from all the seasoned players who so willingly offer up tips. I had heard many stories of people testifying the dangers of 'tilt' and of course I myself vowed that it would never happen to me!
However things seemed to change last night when my chips were in. After having QQ beat by J9 that hit trip 9s on the river I didn't seem to notice my attitude morph into one of '**** this'. Next hand I stupidly proceeded to go all-in on top pair with A kicker, even though I knew the dangers, promptly loosing me my last $3.
Its through posts like yours though, that I realise that the fact that I have realised what I did and can perhaps try to fix the situation the next time it occurs (and I'm sure it will) is worth more then any ammount of $3 chip stacks. And so to a certain extent, even though I lost last night I perhaps gained something more important. (Ahhh...)
So heres to striving for poker perfection high in the sky! Keep up the good work!
Amazing post aokrongly
I can't agree more with the fact that state of mind is the single most important factor in playing winning poker over time.
I consider myself a 'serious recreational player' and definitly the greatest leak in my game is handling those times when you can't win a session regardless of what you do (and anyone I know who plays poker has those times).
Posts like this one help me fix this kind of leak
Thanks
Thx for a great post aokrongly.
Wonderful post. I kind of wish I'd read it last night, when I was uninvolved in my play, lacking concentration, and vacillating between ultra-rock play and weak passive limpsville. Do you know, the more I lost, the worse I played? Who'd have thought it...
Poker is a funny game.
Do everything right and get kicked square in the balls.
Do everything sub-par and walk away 2 grand richer.
(Sub-note: I just lost my first 2k pot last night.)
-'rilla
aok, you rock
i am kind of curious as to what kind of chart this is tho....if aok or vqchuang wouldnt mind, could i take a peek at it?Quote:
Originally Posted by vqchuang
Excellent post. Worthy of a sticky.
aok, we've never talked much but this post is very well written. I appreciate you taking the time out to write it.
Thank you.
Printing it now and adding it to my 'FTR Holy Grail of Poker' Folder!!
:D
Sorry rilla. Nice roll tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
As usual, excellent post AOK.Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Well, the exception is your read on the player can, and should, be used against him. Still, the point is that the odds of what cards show when, has not been changed by previous hands. That is a good lesson. I'll often play a poorer hand than normal if I have folded the last 4-5. I should be questioning why...the odds have not changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
if anyone wants "the chart" just PM me with your email. It's just Harrington on Holdem's tournament play advice boiled down to a chart. It's not a holy grail by any means, but it will help players tighten up and get more agressive.
The best thing you can do if you play NL tourneys (sng or mtt) is read Harrington on Holdem and make your own chart by reading it. Harrington's 2nd book is out. I ordered it and can't wait to read it. The guy plays very tight/aggressive poker, which I prefer. Others have different styles that work just as well or better. But I like patient poker 95% of the time. So his thinking suits my game.
If you are interested in more articles by me then below is a mini-digest of some of my articles on FTR.
I have dozens more free articles on NL Ring, MTT, SnG, 6-Max and my book PERFORMANCE POKER - NO LIMIT! available in full online. Just email me (by clicking my email link below) or PM me (by clicking the PM button below) and I will send you the link to all my writings.
You can see this in action here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...753&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-37660.htm
Here's a mini AOkronlgy Digest:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...057&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...957&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...652&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...175&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...199&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...196&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...386&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...530&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...156&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...869&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...589&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...642&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=188610#188610
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...763&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...762&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...222&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...539&highlight=
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...263&highlight=
When i think of how poker psychology works, i'm reminded of the book 1984 and "doublethink" (please don't steal my lunch money). Although every hand is in a vacuum, and no other hand affects it, you also must remember exactly how simmilar hands played out. You can't think about how you got bad beated by 67s, but it is vital to remember that he will call an allin on a flush draw (i'm just making stuff up).
This post doesn't have a real point, its just some random crap i've thouht up about poker that is sorta related to this thread.
that's very true from a tactical standpoint.
Now lets break out the "Victory Gin".
Another great post aok - thank you.
This is the best bit for me. I love my job (and it pays well!) so I'm not giving up on it however well i do at poker. But this changes the way I think about my game - I can aim for a professional level of play even if it's only once a week :DQuote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Another great post :D
All of your posts should be put together, there's a lot of useful information in them :)
Thanks AOK. Reading this and your post on the psychology of losing has explained quite a few things to me. About a week ago I lost almost my whole bankroll (which wasn't very big) through what I thought to be horrible luck and not through making bad decisions. As well as that, I lost most of it to players who I had judged as morons who were getting lucky. This put me on what I recognized to be serious tilt, but I COULD NOT leave the computer. I mean that I stayed up ALL NIGHT until my eyes and fingers were aching. When I lost hands I swore and hit myself, and when I won I gave my virtual opponenets the finger. It was really crazy. And something happened which NOW I recognize might be the most dangerous result of all - I made back all my money.
Your posts have made me think about positive and negative reinforcement and how we do it to ourselves, and getting that positive reinforcement for playing through the night on tilt might have been a very, very bad thing for me as a beginning poker player. The consequences didn't matter too much this time because my roll was so small and I was prepared to lose it. But if I somehow "learned" from this that when I am losing I should just push and push until I win again, that could put me at serious risk when I am moving up to playing with larger stakes, and when my bankroll is big enough to make me cry to lose half of it...
So anyway. Thanks for these posts. I feel like my head is a bit clearer about it and I have resolved to apply your advice about walking away when you recognize the symptoms of tilt. By the way, your describing them as physical emotional responses which I can't control was VERY helpful. Can't explain exactly why. But knowing that something is HAPPENING my BODY somehow makes it easier to deal with...rather thank thinking of the whole thing as an exclusively mental process. My body doesn't much like sitting in a chair for 8 hours straight while my head plays poker...and when the stress chemicals come pouring in it takes the opportunity to say to my brain "Right, I told you you couldn't do it, let me take over, I can play tennis pretty good can't I?" and everything (sometimes) goes to hell.
I don't know if I'll ever be a pro, but I actually think I'd LIKE to be, purely because it would be such a curious and hilarious and unexpected turn of events in my life. But I know myself quite well and I know that my biggest of all problems is self-discipline. So it's good to be aware that discipline is so important for a professional, because it makes me more realistic about what I would have to do if I was ever to get to that point.
Thanks again.
Sury,
The two most important skills, I think, to long term quality poker results are:
1. Patience
2. Patience
3. Discipline
4. Consistency
Knowledge, experience, skill, agression, etc are all trumped by lack of patience (squared), consistency and discipline. Those are the bedrock to your game. That doesn't mean you play weak or whatever. Patience means you can't FORCE the issue. Discipline is knowing your game and applying it 100% of the time, plus knowing yourself, your limits, etc. Adn Consistency is just that. If you're inconsistent is applying your game, inconsistent with patience, etc. then there's no way to MEASURE your results over a reasonable period of time and ADJUST your game to improve. Game adjustments come in increments. You add a skill or apply a theory and then test it.
It sounds like you understand that you need to understand. And that's critical. All the people who don't care what they don't know and refuse to examine their own game (and mind) are doomed. Not potentially doomed. Just doomed. They are perpetual fish on perpetual tilt.
Good luck.
4. Consistency - Often in a somewhat unconsistent way :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
professional poker also requires stamina... try playing level 3 poker for 8 hours a day.. i did it for about 4 and i was so drained afterwards... so much thinking!
Nice Posto:)
How many people do you think there actually are who play poker for a living by the way?
I know a couple pro's in here. I knew a couple college kids who make more than alot of working adults in here. And I know about 10 people who work but make more playing poker per month than most individuals make from there dayjob. If national median houshold income is 50k, then I would say there are at least 20 people in FTR who make that and more playing poker. I don't know anyone who's "rich" - making hundreds of thousands. But 50-100k ain't bad for a part time job!
I could name them off. But I bet you can guess by who provides the best posts and has the most "guides" and "stickies". Scan the winner's circle and start adding up wins and you'll get an idea from there too.
Alot of people think "pro" means "rich". If you can make 3k per month (that's 100/day) playing poker then you're a top notch player in my book. It ain't that easy, and you have to have a very very consistent game. And if you DO have that game - let's say you're averaging $30/day in net winnings - so you're making 900 or so net per month. Then you have a game that you could ramp up to making thousands just by stepping up the stakes and changing your mentality. I think 50% of making "pro" money is game. I know alot of people who have fantastic game but i wouldn't consider pro caliber. Because the other 50% is mentality. That means money management, discipline, and playing poker as "job" not as an adventure. I don't "play" poker. I work it. And any other players who depend on it for income will tell you the same. That's not to say I don't enjoy it. I do. But it's no game. It's serious. And if I'm going to take hours every night away from my family and stare at a computer screen, then I'm going to make sure it pays me well.
So there u go. The answer is 12 - 24, depending on how you define "pro".
I see, I did take a look at the winners circle, seems several have won tournaments where prices goes up to as high as 10k, maybe even higher. Is that what most pro's do, play the tournaments, or just the high tables and tournaments every now and then? From what I've read, and the little experience I have, the play is very different. Would imagine the 0,5-2k normal tables to be quite nice for income as well for a good player.
hey, how is the professional poker going AOK? ;) :evil:
I just wanted to agree with AoK that Harrington's book, and his style, are very excellent. He plays the same way I do, except, unsurprisingly, he does it better^^ I got that book 2 months ago and I've already read it three times, and working on the fourth.
Nice post. AOK. When I'm a pro I'll remember this. ;) - only kidding.
One thing though - when you say: "don't look into the past after you've finished a session and lost a bit". is this the best advice? phil ivy studies every single play he made in a session in detail after a night of play. And that's why people like Lederer are tipping him to be the best Poker player to have ever lived. I'm guessing you mean - "don't look at it in an emotional way".
I have been "playing" online poker and NLHE for a few years now. My dad introduced me to 7 stud as a child, which really comes in handy these days in HORSE, but that is another post altogether. Anyway, I took a very common route of depositing money, playing way over my head and promptly running my BR down to $.14. Yes that is 14 cents. You may commence laughing now. My personal financial situation was such that I was unable to re-deposit, and I'm not one to throw good money after bad. So I was relegated to freerolls and play money tables. This went on for a few years. I was playing occassionally as work would allow. I placed ITM in a tourney or 2, won and lost some .50 sitngos and my bankroll was now hovering around $2. I found myself learning. Slowly and the hard way, but learning. Through all of it, I came to realize that I really love the game.
A few months ago, I found myself with way too much time on my hands. Unable to work legally in a new country and really ready to get more into this game I love. I recognized how bad a player I am, but that I also have qualities that would enable me to become better. Maybe even good enough to make a little money. They say to "do what you love and the money will follow". I'm ready to test that theory out.
For me, the first step to learning is reading. I couldn't afford to buy any of the books that are recommended, so I was limited to the internet. 'Limited' is not a word I would use to describe what I have found online for free. There is a vast amount of knowledge and many people willing to share their insights. I found another forum that I won't name here. I read through it and found a few gems, but if I had to describe it in a few words it would be "overblown egos in a giant pissing contest". HOWEVER
there was a mention of a site called "perform poker". Wherever my journey along the poker road takes me, I will always remember finding that site (and this one through it) as a turning point.
This guy says I have no game. He is right! I suck! But I am teachable.
I read everything on the site. I played the 19 hands method. I started keeping a journal. I started managing my play money BR as if it were real. I dropped the "what the hell they'll give me more" attitude. I learned that the psychology of poker is only partly about the psychology of other players, it is much more about MY psychology. I am recognizing traits in my own personality that lend themselves well to playing good poker, and others that might present obstacles. But those I am willing to work on.
These days, when I get up from the table, if I feel I played every hand to the best of my ability, win or lose, I feel good about it. And I'm learning more every day. Soon I hope to translate this into more real money experience. To start off slowly, and see where it goes.
so thanks aok, and the rest of you guys here for all your insights and help. I'll quit rambling now...that is all....
play money is nothing like the real thing. but i did learn the basic playing with play money when i was 14 or 15.
i think u should stop wasting your time at the play money tables and start playing for real.
wat
Man I have to tell you just these few post in the Beginning circle section have helped tune my game up This post is so true you cant play optimal on tilt and you should only play the game when you can make professional and optimal descions about your hands and forget about last time stick to s strict game plan and if you have bad results becuase of a one outer beat you then dont let it effect your game and move on awsome post though AOK