anyone ever try this anymore?

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03-12-2006, 11:38 AM
nutsinho

anyone ever try this anymore?

apparently it still works, even at 200nl!

Dealt to nutsinho [ Ac As ]
SinistaType1 calls [$2].
Andy270976 folds.
Annez_H raises [$5].
MrSludge calls [$5].
>You have options at Table 96051 Table!.
checkitplz12 folds.
>You have options at Table 96051 Table!.
nutsinho raises [$43].
SinistaType1 folds.
nutsinho: oops
nutsinho: lol
Annez_H calls [$40].
MrSludge folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 7d, 2h ]
>You have options at Table 96051 Table!.
nutsinho checks.
>You have options at Table 96051 Table!.
Annez_H bets [$40].
nutsinho is all-In [$152]
Annez_H calls [$112].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
Annez_H shows [ Qd, Qh ] a pair of queens.
nutsinho shows [ Ac, As ] a pair of aces.
nutsinho wins $399 from the main pot with a pair of aces.
03-12-2006, 12:22 PM
The_Bankroll

nice.
03-12-2006, 12:51 PM
Pelion

Just out of interest did you pause, and then raise. Or was it a quick check/quick raise.
03-12-2006, 02:11 PM
nutsinho

paused before checking, paused before raising
03-12-2006, 02:49 PM
bdawg56kg

Re: anyone ever try this anymore?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

apparently there are still uber-donks, even at 200nl!

FYP.

NH though. Are you referring to the huge preflop reraise, or the flop CR AI when you say "this still works"?
03-12-2006, 02:54 PM
Lukie

That is where your money comes from in poker.
03-12-2006, 02:55 PM
Lukie

Re: anyone ever try this anymore?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

apparently there are still uber-donks, even at 200nl!

FYP.

NH though. Are you referring to the huge preflop reraise, or the flop CR AI when you say "this still works"?

I think he means his play in general, referring to both. Probably moreso the flop CR.

And cmon, we both know that NL200 is a very tough, solid, non-donkish game. Let's be real.

/sarcasm
03-12-2006, 08:05 PM
IowaSkinsFan

he pretty much gave you that money
03-12-2006, 08:11 PM
underminedsk

owned.
03-12-2006, 11:04 PM
Renton

sucky thing is a play like that ONLY works when someone else at the table has AA, KK, QQ, or AK. Which isn't very often. Which is why I never make this play, because I'd rather win a moderately decent pot every time I have AA, then a monster pot 1 in 15 times and taking down the blinds the other 14 times.
03-12-2006, 11:13 PM
drtofu66

Do you think the "Oops. lol." line helped?
03-13-2006, 05:32 AM
Lukie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

sucky thing is a play like that ONLY works when someone else at the table has AA, KK, QQ, or AK. Which isn't very often. Which is why I never make this play, because I'd rather win a moderately decent pot every time I have AA, then a monster pot 1 in 15 times and taking down the blinds the other 14 times.

Heh, If I could get QQ/KK/AK allin everytime with this line, I'd use it EVERY TIME, bar none.

If you ever get stacked here in villain's place holding QQ, that is terrible. AK is beyond words....

KKvAA meh, I find on non-A flops, the person with AA has to mess up really bad to not get all the money.

Usually.
03-13-2006, 08:37 AM
TanO

Doubt "oops, lol" makes much difference here at all.
03-13-2006, 10:11 AM
r8ed

I think check-rasing here is too obvious. I'd rather put out your normal cbet and let them reraise you. Sometimes I'll just call the reraise (after using some time) and check-raise the turn. But often I'll 3-bet the flop so a scary turn card doesn't kill my action.

I used both options I mention yesterday when I hit a set with JJ (twice) on the flop. Both times mid-PPs (that didn't set) gave me their stacks. This was at 100NL 6max. So, now I'll lose the next 28 times I hold JJ.
03-13-2006, 11:25 AM
Rondavu

I don't like this hand. It was played like two hillbillies raping a chicken. I lead out every time on this flop. I don't like checkraising the most powerful hand in poker on safe boards. Might as well tell the dinner guests you spit in the soup. Why are you maximizing fold equity? That's the last thing you want. This isn't a pissing contest ("Ha ha, my hand rules and yours doesn't"). This is a value game. Show me this hand when the opponent has 88.
03-13-2006, 11:31 AM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I don't like this hand. It was played like two hillbillies raping a chicken. I lead out every time on this flop. I don't like checkraising the most powerful hand in poker on safe boards. Might as well tell the dinner guests you spit in the soup. Why are you maximizing fold equity? That's the last thing you want. This isn't a pissing contest ("Ha ha, my hand rules and yours doesn't"). This is a value game. Show me this hand when the opponent has 88.

I agree with you 100%.

The only time I make a play like this is when I KNOW I am getting a call.

Ex:

I was in a battle of the blinds on the SB in a nl25 game. I raised to 3xbb with A4s and he calls. The flop comes JJx with two to my suit. I c-bet out and he min-raises: its obvious he has the J. I call. The turn completes my flush. Now using what I know about his hand (that he has the J) and the fact that he's a 25nl player and probably sucks, I know he isn't laying his hand down, no matter what the resistance. So I just open push on the turn and he calls.

You just can't do this with a hand as weak as unimproved AA.
03-13-2006, 12:33 PM
nutsinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I don't like this hand. It was played like two hillbillies raping a chicken. I lead out every time on this flop. I don't like checkraising the most powerful hand in poker on safe boards. Might as well tell the dinner guests you spit in the soup. Why are you maximizing fold equity? That's the last thing you want. This isn't a pissing contest ("Ha ha, my hand rules and yours doesn't"). This is a value game. Show me this hand when the opponent has 88.

I agree with you 100%.

The only time I make a play like this is when I KNOW I am getting a call.

Ex:

I was in a battle of the blinds on the SB in a nl25 game. I raised to 3xbb with A4s and he calls. The flop comes JJx with two to my suit. I c-bet out and he min-raises: its obvious he has the J. I call. The turn completes my flush. Now using what I know about his hand (that he has the J) and the fact that he's a 25nl player and probably sucks, I know he isn't laying his hand down, no matter what the resistance. So I just open push on the turn and he calls.

You just can't do this with a hand as weak as unimproved AA.

I think you guys are way off.

The flop line was perfect...
Obviously if he calls 1/4 of his stack preflop he has AK or 88+ and is not playing for set value.
If I lead out strong this gives him one last chance to come to the right conclusion about this hand and fold.
Pausing then checking is my chance to convince him of that the reraise was actually and "oops lol" or that I have AK and missed the flop...If I then check/raise to an amount less than all in it clearly reeks of a strong hand. Check-raising all in is the only play that looks like I have little and am desperate to defend the $45 I "accidentally" put in preflop.

And P.S., this is the first time I've ever used this huge reraise line with AA. When I'm in position I definitely think it's more profitable to use a normal reraise and then play some poker. Out of position at this level, reraising to 20-25$ SCREAMS AA-KK and is not likely to win you much money. Just calling is horrible. Reraising to 12-15$ is going to lose you a lot of money against the drawing hands people play at these loose tables; being out of position against two callers sucks. Thus, a play like this may be the most profitable in this situation...after all, ridiculous reraises definitely disguise your hand more than standard ones when youre out of position facing weak position raises.
03-13-2006, 01:07 PM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Check-raising all in is the only play that looks like I have little and am desperate to defend the $45 I "accidentally" put in preflop.

Accidentwhodally? I commend your thought process. You're obviously intelligent, because you're thinking several layers deeper than you need to be. Simplify the hand, and it should become clear to you. The board is 7 high. You want maximum value from 88-KK. How do you achieve this? There are several ways against different players, but check raising hard on the flop is seldom one of them.

I'm not saying it's never the best line. In a hyper aggressive game with loose images flying around, this would certainly be a strong line against a wide range, but you're asking the villain to give you credit for a purchasing tendancy (with air) that you haven't exactly shown a pattern of being capable of, or have you? I don't know the answer to that. What you're doing with the check raise here in general however, is you're asking 88-TT to fold, JJ-QQ to think about their stack and fold too often, and KK is mute point.
03-13-2006, 01:08 PM
r8ed

You don't have to "lead out strong". Just bet 1/2 pot which is what an opp would expect you to do regardless. Check-raising confirms that you have AA/KK. Against a poor player you're getting their stack here regardless.
03-13-2006, 01:49 PM
nutsinho

meh....i guess
03-13-2006, 02:01 PM
Miffed22001

i think you have to let opp fall in love with this flop.
03-13-2006, 02:10 PM
nutsinho

One thing to consider...

Assume: opp is bad if he calls my raise with <KK.
Assume: even fairly bad opponent at 200nl can lay down a wired pair when facing heavy betting with an overcard on board.
Thus, if my "acting" has worked correctly, then 88-QQ held by poor player is ready to get it in on this flop. Check-calling or betting ~1/2 and getting cold called risks an overcard falling on the turn and the opp being able to get away from his hand.
03-13-2006, 02:25 PM
WildBobAA

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Assume: opp is bad if he calls my raise with <KK.

Why would you assume this? He's bad because he called your massive overbet with QQ? I've seen idiots overbet the pot w/ AK and then stick their stacks in on a missed flop at this level. A $40 bet doesn't mean AA.
03-13-2006, 02:32 PM
r8ed

How often do you raise > 4bb preflop and check the flop? How often do you cbet in that case? How often do opponents call your > 4bb raise and then fold to a 1/2 pot cbet when holding an overpair? How often do you checkraise allin on a non-scary board and have <QQ? These factors may dictate your play here.

Imagine I'm villain and I come on FTR and post the flip side of this. What reaction will I get? ...WTF is wrong with you? WTF do you think he has?...would be a common theme.
03-13-2006, 04:11 PM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i think you have to let opp fall in love with this flop.

:clap:
03-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Lukie

Quote:

Why would you assume this? He's bad because he called your massive overbet with QQ?

I think this is exactly the case.

Quote:

I've seen idiots overbet the pot w/ AK and then stick their stacks in on a missed flop at this level. A $40 bet doesn't mean AA.

Key word here is idiots.

No bet size is ever going to exactly mean any particular hand.

Assume your opponent is competant. Does he make this play with a hand that doesn't have QQ smoked?

I think in almost all cases, the answer is no.
03-13-2006, 05:08 PM
Lukie

By the way nuts, I liked the play. Obviously not standard, and probably only works against morons and probably only once... but still. vnh.
03-13-2006, 06:03 PM
WildBobAA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Assume your opponent is competant. Does he make this play with a hand that doesn't have QQ smoked?

I think in almost all cases, the answer is no.

Depends if he interprets the overbet as a mistake or a play. I can remember a few occasions where I hit an extra 4 when meaning to bet $4.
03-13-2006, 07:34 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

I think this play isn't terrible. Obviously not standard, and probably works every time against mediocre players who don't really understand deepish money NLHE until they wise up or go broke. My biggest concern here is that I like stealing pots and after running this line I worry about "opposite man" reads.

Fixed your post.