aces still good? 5/10

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03-09-2006, 09:38 AM
PO$$E$$ED

aces still good? 5/10

I'm holding :ad: :ah: in the SB in a 9-handed 5/10 game. MP (around $600) open-raises to $35, guy 2 off the button with a full stack raises to $130. I think and call. Everyone folds.
Flop comes :5c: :qh: :8s: . I check, villain checks behind.
Turn comes :7s: . I lead for $175 into a $305 pot. Villain raises to $425. What's your play, assuming you know villain is putting the rest AI (about $500) on the river? I don't have a good read on the guy, as I haven't seen much of him at the site, but he seems solid.

villain's potential holdings that I am beating/tie: AQ, KK, AA, bluff
villain's potential holdings to which I am behind: QQ
03-09-2006, 09:53 AM
WildBobAA

KK and AA bet the flop and AQ usually doesn't make that raise PF. QQ makes the most sense.
03-09-2006, 10:31 AM
Renton

reraise preflop?

is that an option?

Of course this is coming from the 25nl fish. Even if you took down the pot right then and there, it would be a decent pot (like 5bb or so)
03-09-2006, 11:25 AM
Fnord

Re: aces still good? 5/10

I really like a flop bet here.

AQ will raise "to see where he's at", then often stick the rest in on the re-raise because he's "pot-struck"

AK loves his hand and will raise because he thinks you're weak.

AA/KK can't get away from his hand.

QQ is gonna stack you almost always anyway, this is the risk of smooth calling pre-flop. Plus enough money went in pre-flop not to worry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

assuming you know villain is putting the rest AI (about $500) on the river?

Big assumption. Are you sure he never checks behind?

How common is checking behind on the flop in this game?
03-09-2006, 12:22 PM
PO$$E$$ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

reraise preflop?

is that an option?

Of course this is coming from the 25nl fish. Even if you took down the pot right then and there, it would be a decent pot (like 5bb or so)

Sure it's an option. The reason why I didn't push preflop was because the initial raiser ( the guy in MP who raised to $35 preflop) was loose and I wanted to leave the window open for him to get crazy with AK or something, or call with a marginal hand. Also with the $130 raise nobody at the table was getting the right price to try to suck out with a set.
03-09-2006, 12:23 PM
PO$$E$$ED

doublepost
03-09-2006, 12:43 PM
Rondavu

Play for stacks. Villain shows KK.
03-09-2006, 01:56 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

reraise preflop?

is that an option?

Of course this is coming from the 25nl fish. Even if you took down the pot right then and there, it would be a decent pot (like 5bb or so)

Sure it's an option. The reason why I didn't push preflop was because the initial raiser ( the guy in MP who raised to $35 preflop) was loose and I wanted to leave the window open for him to get crazy with AK or something, or call with a marginal hand. Also with the $130 raise nobody at the table was getting the right price to try to suck out with a set.

Is there any amount you could raise that wouldn't unshroud your hand? Like maybe a minraise just to get the UTG guy out of the scenario?
03-09-2006, 01:57 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

reraise preflop?

is that an option?

Of course this is coming from the 25nl fish. Even if you took down the pot right then and there, it would be a decent pot (like 5bb or so)

Sure it's an option. The reason why I didn't push preflop was because the initial raiser ( the guy in MP who raised to $35 preflop) was loose and I wanted to leave the window open for him to get crazy with AK or something, or call with a marginal hand. Also with the $130 raise nobody at the table was getting the right price to try to suck out with a set.

Is there any amount you could raise that wouldn't unshroud your hand? Like maybe a minraise just to get the open raiser out of the scenario?
03-09-2006, 02:09 PM
PO$$E$$ED

Re: aces still good? 5/10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I really like a flop bet here.

AQ will raise "to see where he's at", then often stick the rest in on the re-raise because he's "pot-struck"

AK loves his hand and will raise because he thinks you're weak.

AA/KK can't get away from his hand.

QQ is gonna stack you almost always anyway, this is the risk of smooth calling pre-flop. Plus enough money went in pre-flop not to worry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

assuming you know villain is putting the rest AI (about $500) on the river?

Big assumption. Are you sure he never checks behind?

How common is checking behind on the flop in this game?

I was pretty sure he wasn't going to check behind on the river after raising to $425 on the turn, given the way he played.
I decided to check the flop for several reasons. The flop only hit QQ, there's nothing he could be drawing to, and by checking I am inducing bluffs from hands like AK and also concealing my hand. I was pretty much committed to the hand, and I decided it was appropriate to slowplay the hand to get the most value out of it if I'm ahead.
03-09-2006, 10:39 PM
supermoneyz1

yep, your logic is correct.. Pay off his QQ... (which given his play seems to be a likely holding)...

Yet, if he had KK/AA money would of gone in middle no matter what.
Only hand you're really maximizing value with is AK/AQ
03-12-2006, 02:21 PM
IowaSkinsFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by supermoneyz1

yep, your logic is correct.. Pay off his QQ... (which given his play seems to be a likely holding)...

If you're that sure he has QQ why would you tell him to pay it off?
03-13-2006, 04:20 PM
zenbitz

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by supermoneyz1

yep, your logic is correct.. Pay off his QQ... (which given his play seems to be a likely holding)...

If you're that sure he has QQ why would you tell him to pay it off?

likey != sure.
Although I should talk, since I paid off a bigger flush with a baby flush when I was sure that he had it.
03-13-2006, 05:28 PM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Play for stacks. Villain shows KK.

Will he play for stacks with the Q there?
03-13-2006, 11:12 PM
Lukie

How deep are you? I'm going to assume button's full stack = 100bb and you cover.

Cold-calling the reraise preflop is so transparent. I think you do with this AK or worse approximately never. Ditto with pretty much every non-huge hand.

That, coupled with the fact that you have the worst position, and MP still has to be heard from, I'd just 4-bet this preflop and get enough of it in preflop to make your decisions easy. If you think your opponents are bad enough to not see the transparency in your preflop play, the call might be ok, but playing a 3 way pot here oop absolutely sucks. Bleh, I really think 4-betting preflop is best in this specific situation.

Postflop I think you are going to the felt here almost regardless, so taking a line that will get you max value out of second best hands should be the way to go. If he has one of the 3 combos of QQQ, well, that just sucks. Lead, c/c, c/r could all be appropriate on this flop, and I'm trying to get it all-in by the turn.

As played, I just 3-bet this turn all-in. That is assuming AKs/maybe AQs is in his range given preflop play.

Fwiw, I think he has QQQ a lot here, but I still think this is the best way to play it.
03-13-2006, 11:59 PM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

I think you do with this AK or worse approximately never.

he can call with any pair for set value here
03-14-2006, 12:35 PM
zenbitz

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

I think you do with this AK or worse approximately never.

he can call with any pair for set value here

Is a full stack $1K? I don't think you can cold-call $130 with like 44 unless he has at least $1,000 behind. Even then, it's pretty close.
03-14-2006, 01:08 PM
naturaltan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

... I really think 4-betting preflop is best in this specific situation.

What does 4 bet preflop mean?

3 bet is betting all three streets, correct?
03-14-2006, 02:07 PM
zenbitz

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturaltan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

... I really think 4-betting preflop is best in this specific situation.

What does 4 bet preflop mean?

3 bet is betting all three streets, correct?

No, 3 bet = bet - raise - re-raise in a GIVEN street.
4 bet (also called ''cap" in Limit) bet - raise - re-raise - re-re-raise.
03-14-2006, 03:11 PM
Fnord

I five the sandbox.
03-14-2006, 03:40 PM
poskid_1982

I guess my problem with the hand is why arent you simply leading into the PFR on the flop OOP? You can lead and either get a fold or lead and get raised (let's face it he's not calling). This way you can 3-bet push with your hand on the flop where he already killed the possibility of playing anything for set value preflop...BUT if you give him the free turn then small PP's can play for set value on 4 cards instead of 3...This is a situation where passing up the bet trying to catch the PFR c-betting kills you.

PK
03-14-2006, 03:48 PM
PO$$E$$ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Cold-calling the reraise preflop is so transparent. I think you do with this AK or worse approximately never. Ditto with pretty much every non-huge hand.

And raising a $130 re-raise isn't giving away my hand? If I re-raise to say $300 the only hands he can put me on is AA/KK. If I call, my range opens up to TT-AA/JA/QA/KA and even PPs lower than tens if he thinks I'm loose. Also,
I felt that his re-raise showed a lot of strength, and I felt he would be holding KK/QQ here most of the time. I thought it was unlikely he would fold to a raise, so I called and left the door open for the initial raiser in MP to get frisky.
03-14-2006, 04:37 PM
midas06

Po$$e$$ed can you PM me your sn sometime so I can ghost you buddy? kthx
03-16-2006, 12:12 AM
boost

TT JJ and QQ is what I can put him on when he reraises you on the turn. And you say hes solid so TT is probably less likely. I dont really know how these big games play, but those are the only hands I can see someone taking this line with. I guess if he has KK he can check behind hoping to pick off a bluff from AK TT or JJ. Blah, I dontk now, this seems like one of those hands thats pretty much even EV. And at these stakes since you are playing with the same guys fairly often (right?) it seems best to go with it so you can grab a read on him. Afterall you are coming out even on the hand over the long run.
03-16-2006, 04:15 AM
Demiparadigm

88?

I call the turn and check/call the river.
03-17-2006, 02:37 AM
PO$$E$$ED

I call his $150 raise on the turn. On the river I check, villain goes AI, I call. He flips over QQ.
04-18-2006, 02:03 PM
bigboy5540

now that you mention it... the only thing about this hand that gives away his strength is the flop check. Lets face it. You are hoping he has KK when you call his turn re raise. You know he doesn't have AQ already based on his preflop actions. You know JJ will smooth call your turn bet. You know he is solid so it is highly unlikely he would take such a big risk against you with AK suited, whom i assume he knows is solid as well and is capable of picking off his bluff. the only hand you hope he has is KK. However, KK will almost always bet the flop in this situation. The reason is because he knows at least one of you most likely has a PP and he will bet to test the waters and get value in case one of you have the AQ. Checking is highly risky because you guys could be drawing to the ace or set, which beats him and takes away a fairly big pot from him. It also takes away his ability to test the waters.
Thus, His check on the flop with two players in the pot, combined with his preflop actions will put him on only two hands and two hands only: QQ or AA. Well, you know he doesn't have AA (it is highly unlikely) because you have two aces. The initial raiser to 35 preflop probably has one of the aces (AJ+). Therefore the only hand he could have is QQ based on all his actions. Yes he could have KK but it is very unlikely. You are hoping against logic when you call.
04-18-2006, 02:07 PM
bigboy5540

also let me mention that there is no way he could have JJ or 1010 given his line. He is too solid of a player to make such a foolish move with two people in the pot with JJ or 1010. If he does do it with those hands, then fold, shake his hand and say good bluff. there is nothing you can do.
04-18-2006, 02:09 PM
bigboy5540

fold everytime based on the line. easy read of QQ.

if he bet the flop there would be absolutely no way to get away from this hand. His line was weak.
04-20-2006, 05:13 AM
ender555

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

fold everytime based on the line. easy read of QQ.

if he bet the flop there would be absolutely no way to get away from this hand. His line was weak.