I refuse to fold!

BB is a kinda TAggy.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($213)
CO ($96.50)
Fnord ($126.45)
SB ($53.85)
BB ($99.60)
UTG ($34.75)
UTG+1 ($93.10)
MP1 ($75.80)
MP2 ($37.50)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with A:heart:, T:spade:.
6 folds, Fnord raises to $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($6.50) 7:diamond:, A:club:, 7:club: (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord thinks... bets $4, BB raises to $12, Fnord calls $8.

Turn: ($30.50) 9:diamond: (2 players)
BB bets $14, Fnord calls $14.

River: ($58.50) T:heart: (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets $20, BB folds.

Final Pot: $78.50


My opponent here is kinda LAggy, but thinking. Running well. Seen him pick up a quite a few pots on the flop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($212.40)
SB ($91.50)
Fnord ($149.75)
UTG ($99)
UTG+1 ($99.50)
MP1 ($43.85)
MP2 ($92.10)
MP3 ($74.30)
CO ($38.20)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with J:diamond:, T:diamond:.
5 folds, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: ($4) 9:club:, J:spade:, 9:heart: (4 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, CO checks, Button bets $2, SB folds, Fnord calls $2, CO folds.

Turn: ($8) 2:spade: (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets $4, Fnord calls $4.

River: ($16) A:club: (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button thinks.... bets $7, Fnord calls $7.

Final Pot: $30

*glub* *glub* *glub*

hand 1:

Quote:

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BB is a kinda donkish.

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FYP
Against most, I probably just fold the flop, but if you don't, it's kinda hard getting away on the turn. What's your plan on the river if he check-raises?

hand 2: <><

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

*glub* *glub* *glub*

Against most, I probably just fold the flop, but if you don't, it's kinda hard getting away on the turn. What's your plan on the river if he check-raises?

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Easy fold. If he's not spewing chips at me, I sucked out on a lot of his made hand range on the river. Easy value bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

hand 2: <><

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Should I regularly fold good hands to players who almost always bet when checked to?

looks like villain has a 9 in hand two.

Just the way he's half potting it on ever street. Smells like a strong hand.

i dont see how you could be winning hand 2.

I'm convinced that the point of half Fnord's posts is to try to turn everyone on this board into a calling station.

Against aggressive players there's something to be said for that approach, but I don't see the point of sticking around in Hand 2. This is a nothing pot, you might be way behind, and even if you're ahead he still has outs. If he's really going to bet every street if you check to him, you'll soon find a better spot than this one.

Quote:

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Easy fold. If he's not spewing chips at me, I sucked out on a lot of his made hand range on the river. Easy value bet.

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agreed, I wasn't implying you should check behind.. sorry if what I said was a bit confusing. Just wondering if you call a c/r on the river here, and if so, up to what amount. Out of curiousity, what is your plan for the rest of the hand when he c/r the flop? I assume you dump it to a stronger turn bet, but don't you think you are putting yourself in a real tough situation with a very marginal hand?

Quote:

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Should I regularly fold good hands to players who almost always bet when checked to?

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You have a very marginal hand OOP. I understand rediscovering that middle button against overly aggro players, but you didn't include that read, you never really define the strength of your hand, you are playing OOP with a hand that may already be crushed, and if not, it is one that can easily be drawn out on by any overcard. You never give your opponent a chance to fold here, which is a mistake IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

I'm convinced that the point of half Fnord's posts is to try to turn everyone on this board into a calling station.

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Haha.

About the actual hands in question, I don't particularly like any of it. What makes you think a 7 is not in villian's hand range? His line makes a lot of sense to me if he does have a 7. Given this, I would check behind on the river. That's a very very thin value bet you're making. If you figure you might be outkicked or he might have a 7, then you should find a fold on either the flop or the turn.

Second hand, meh. Flop is okay I guess, but I would lead the turn and dump to a raise. I also wouldn't call the river. Hell, I don't mind folding the flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

I'm convinced that the point of half Fnord's posts is to try to turn everyone on this board into a calling station.

Against aggressive players there's something to be said for that approach, but I don't see the point of sticking around in Hand 2. This is a nothing pot, you might be way behind, and even if you're ahead he still has outs. If he's really going to bet every street if you check to him, you'll soon find a better spot than this one.

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yah there are a few reasons why this is a bad play.

1.) small pot
2.) if youre ahead, its not by much and he probably has a fair number of outs.
3.) if youre behind, its by a large margin and you dont have many ways to outdraw him.

eaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssyyyyyy fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Flop is okay I guess, but I would lead the turn and dump to a raise.

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Q: Is there a line that could possibly scream "I'm weak RAISE ME" any louder?
A: min-betting into a PFR

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journey075

1.) small pot
2.) if youre ahead, its not by much and he probably has a fair number of outs.
3.) if youre behind, its by a large margin and you dont have many ways to outdraw him.

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I think way ahead/behind certainly applies. However, what % of the time do you think I'm ahead?

its very hard to tell given the way you played it. the primary reason i want to fold though is because of the size of the pot on the flop. theres just no reason to play this out of position.

that being said, my favored line is not check/fold. its lead and see what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journey075

its lead and see what happens.

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That line tends to get me WFTPwned by better hand and gets worse hands to fold in this nothing pot. It also will put you in even more difficult spots on the turn/river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Flop is okay I guess, but I would lead the turn and dump to a raise.

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Q: Is there a line that could possibly scream "I'm weak RAISE ME" any louder?
A: min-betting into a PFR

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I don't see why a flop c/c followed by a turn lead is a weak hand most times. I am very capable of playing big hands this way. Do you routinely c/c 3 streets with flopped trips?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journey075

its lead and see what happens.

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That line tends to get me WFTPwned by better hand and gets worse hands to fold in this nothing pot. It also will put you in even more difficult spots on the turn/river.

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well heres how i play the hand.

i lead for full pot and if i get raised i cant fold fast enough. if i get called, i check turn to keep pot control in mind and ill call bets that are small enough. river would be interesting, but i expect check/check and if not im folding to anything.

might be weak, but it exercises a ton of pot control and gives you some addl outs with FE.

First hand to me looks like the guy caught his ace and got scared because fnord represents the set. fnords hesitation makes the guy think he doesn't have the set on the flop so he raises big trying to throw him off. By calling quickly then calling on the turn buddy is now scared that he's been out smarted. His check seals his fate. Pretty ballsy hand I'm thinking, you obviously put his range above having a 9 in his hand and you went with it.

2nd hand the guy is a lag so the check on the flop isn't bad. I would probably lead out on the turn to keep him from sucking out on me, but the hesitant bet on the river shows he's scared of the ace, so he doesn't have a set. I'd call there too.

For the results oriented, in the second hand he had :8h: :7s: MHIG!

I had mixed feeling about both hands. After reading the responses I'm still lacking clairity. It's not like I regularly go around making these kinds of call downs. However, is it correct to say you're always laying down? Donking turns/flops when you know if they have it, it's getting called down until at least the turn, maybe river? Maybe NLHE just isn't a call his ass down kinda game, it's just blast blast blast....

In the first hand I seriously considered a check behind, but fuck it. He seems to be thinking, trying to play well. If I don't bet here quite often it really hurts my chances of repping it when I have air (which is much more common.)

I understand that calling standards go way up in NLHE, but it's still hold'em; the game where no one usually has much of anything and the guy with the best hand probably has mixed feelings about it. Particularly when we're heads-up to the flop...

I guess this is what NLHE is all about then?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($212.30)
UTG+1 ($99)
Fnord ($106.65)
MP2 ($67.35)
MP3 ($103.60)
CO ($34.75)
Button ($80)
SB ($76.30)
BB ($40)

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with 6:heart:, 7:heart:.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, Fnord raises to $4, 1 fold, MP3 calls $4, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $3.

Flop: ($13.50) 4:club:, Q:club:, J:spade: (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Fnord checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: ($13.50) A:spade: (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Fnord bets $9, MP3 folds, UTG+1 calls $9.

River: ($31.50) 3:spade: (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Fnord bets $15, UTG+1 folds.