The Fish Win

I'm fairly new to poker - I've been playing about 10 months now, and I consider myself a decent player. (As in, I know how to lay traps, and I'm aware of many different styles, being tight/aggressive myself) I play low/micro stakes (0.10 or 0.25) NL, and I'm in clear profit since starting. I got bored of my current client (BetFred, the same iPoker network as Fair Poker), because I found the games weren't that easy. They certainly improved my game, but I was making very little profit. Having seen the Pacific Poker review on here, I decided to migrate, and give it a go.

I was amazed by the extreme fishiness of the play, and I immediately made profit. (Having the nuts called down by Ace high and the like)
But, as time went on, I found myself losing more and more. A friend who also played Pacific found this happening as well - he'd win a good amount at the $1 tables, btu lose horribly at the 0.10 tables. Why was this? Why couldn't we beat a table full of measly stupid fish? I worked it out, and it was because it was impossible to throw fish off a hand. I'd raise to 10x (Yes, 10x) preflop with KK, and still have 5 callers. I'd hit a set with two red Tens, on a flop of 10s, 6s, 2h, bet hugely to block the flush draw, and still get taken out by gutbusters, runner-runner draws, and terrible flush draws. I'd hit top pair off the flop, bet twice the pot, and get beaten by the river by someone who'd called with overcards.

This happened so regularly, that I left with much less profit than I had at the start.

I'm now on Fair Poker, enjoying the beatable, but challenging games.

I tried everything that the poker books I've read, all the advice I got, I tried it all with the fish, and they still won.

I just wanted to share this with you, and share the fact that there ARE times when the fish can beat a decent player.

Please add opinions and relevant experiences.

Cheers.

Its all been said before and its not true IMO. If you are being beaten by the fish then take a moment to think about your game. It isnt the case that you cant win a game of poker because the other players make too many mistakes. It is far more likely that you are not exploiting these mistakes and are paying them off when they hit.

Do a search for counterplay and take a look at some of the adaptations you might try to beat these games.

You need to stop overvaluing hands like unimproved KK postflop, and bet rediculously hard when you hit top 2 pair or better.

Sometimes you will be allin on the flop, othertimes the turn. If you are making good (but vulnerable) hands and you arent allin or folded by the turn when you have that many callers then you are playing wrong IMO.

Try and see cheap flops with nut building, drawing hands like 67s, Axs etc and learn to drop the hammer when you have hit something and the pot is a nice size.

I can understand loosing against 9 bad players while winning against 2 good players to a flop. Against 2 good players to a flop, your percentage of winning is higher against those two. If you have for example the same hand against 9 bad players, your percentage of winning the hand will decrease, because of the increased number of outs for your combined opponents.

That being said, this should only increase your variance. Against bad players you should win a lot more on some hands but also loose a lot more on other hands.

even at accelerated on-line speeds, 10 months is a fairly short poker career.

Horses for corses, even if your BR can support the variance and you know you will win long term (assuming your game is up to it) not everyones psyche can support the variance! Play wherever you can produce your A-game most often and 'feels' best for you.

I personally find big swings hard to deal with, although I'm getting better at it! I used to play Pacific but don't any more.

If you want to win loads and loads of $$, go read all of Aokronglys posts about beating low stakes NL and apply it. You also need to go and have a think and try and understand where exactly the profits, which low stakes winners like me and many others enjoy, come from. Believing what you wrote in your first post there will lead to your destruction as a poker player.

Another shameless plug:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=29364

This is typical of Pac poker players at the low limits...as I mention at the bottom of the whine session...I would leave that site, but it goes my way often enough to still be plenty profitable. Normally in that hand I wouldn't have been so confident with just an overpair, but I had specific reads on both of these players that they were just morons all around, the first an aggressive moron, and the second a passive one.

Still - the swings I encounter at pacific are worse than those I have had at Ultimate Bet (secondary site)...so play where you are comfortable and winning and I don't think there's anything wrong with that overall.
And yes, fish do win often enough to keep them playing, keep them thinking that they are playing well, and keep them fishy :-P

On a happier note, here's how it goes in the other direction, still at Pac poker...granted, I drew out here, but let's just pretend I had a set :) --- either way I was ahead on the flop.
My biggest mistake was not reloading before the hand, and I probably should have just pushed the flop since I was pushing the turn regardless.

Pacific Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($18.04)
UTG+1 ($30.16)
UTG+2 ($10)
MP1 ($8.10)
CO ($7.65)
Button($11.65)
SB ($8.30)
BB ($8)

Preflop: Hero is BB with :Td: :2d: .
SB posts $0.05, Hero posts $0.10, UTG+2 posts $0.10, UTG raises to $0.20, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, Hero calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.80) (4 players)
:Jd: :9d: :8s:
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, UTG raises to $1.20, UTG+2 calls $1.20, SB folds, Hero raises to $4.60, UTG calls $3.40, UTG+2 calls $3.40.

Turn: ($13.90) (3 players)
:6d:

Hero bets allin $3.20, UTG calls $3.20, UTG+1 calls $3.20.

River: ($23) (3 players)
:Qd:

Hero shows :Td: :2d: (A flush Queen high - ten kicker)
UTG shows :Kc: :Qc: (a pair of Queens)
UTG+2 shows :Ts: :4d: (a flush Queen high - four kicker)

Hero wins pot $23.

So at least the fish don't always win -- that is, unless I was the fish -- I know T2s isn't all that playable, but I could hardly fold it preflop for another dime - 'sides I might flop a miracle open-ended straight and flush draw :)

Happy hunting!

If the fish are winning against you (in the long run of course), then i'm sorry, but you are the fish. There are things you can do to change this; the most important thing being that you need to be brutally honest with yourself about how well you are playing, and then fix whatever problems you find.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=26429

Then read the rest of AOKrongly's posts. He's the man :D