How do you beat these guys

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03-02-2006, 10:59 AM
Rabid Dog

How do you beat these guys

Or do you add them to your friends list? I mean surely he didnt think his pair of 5's were that solid with the bets I put out. He was chaising an OESD to the river. I'm not that knowledgeable at odds or pot odds. But was his that good to justify calling down. I knew as soon as that 3 hit I was beat. Dont know why I called his raise.

Players:
heddes (EUR 14.48 in seat 1)
Sander63 (EUR 9.19 in seat 2)
Piiiiit (EUR 18.00 in seat 3)
ycbml (EUR 15.90 in seat 4)
gsl (EUR 10.00 in seat 5)
wigho (EUR 3.29 in seat 6)
rabiddog99 (EUR 19.70 in seat 7)
mhz600 (EUR 12.25 in seat 8)

Dealer: ycbml
Small Blind: wigho (0.10)
Big Blind: rabiddog99 (0.20)

rabiddog99 was dealt: As - Ac

mhz600 Fold
heddes Fold
Sander63 Call (0.20)
ycbml Fold
wigho Fold
rabiddog99 Raise (0.75)
Sander63 Call (0.75)

Flop 4d - Kd - 6h

rabiddog99 Bet (1.50)
Sander63 Call (1.50)

Turn 4d - Kd - 6h - 5h

rabiddog99 Bet (2.00)
Sander63 Call (2.00)

River 4d - Kd - 6h - 5h - 3s

rabiddog99 Bet (2.00)
Sander63 Raise (4.00)
rabiddog99 Call (2.00)

Sander63 shows: 7c - 5d (a straight, seven high)

rabiddog99 didn't show hand

Sander63 wins: EUR 16.15 (with a straight, seven high)
Rake: EUR 0.40
03-02-2006, 11:25 AM
Rondavu

Standard. You did beat this guy. Just not in this hand. Bet $5 on the turn. You gave him delicious odds.
03-02-2006, 11:28 AM
crime002000

you've got to hammer the flop harder, as he has the odds to call you on the flop with OESD. On the turn, he doesn't really have the odds to keep drawing, but takes a gamble that pays off. Add him to your buddy list just for the fact he called a raise with that preflop, unless he somehow read you as a passive player that he could push off a hand...
03-02-2006, 11:32 AM
Rondavu

Right. If he knows you give out pot/implied odds like candy, he's right to chase it down.
03-02-2006, 11:38 AM
Rabid Dog

Been playing extremely tight. So I dont think I gave off that impression. Here's what Ive done. I reloaded to keep my stack at max. Ive watched this guy triple his stack so far playing the exact same way. Eventually Im hoping to hit a huge hand and have it trickle back down to me plus some. All Im doing is playing aok's 19 hands and trying to use position. So some of the 19 hands I have been folding when I felt I was out of position.
03-02-2006, 11:39 AM
Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

you've got to hammer the flop harder, as he has the odds to call you on the flop with OESD. .

It was basically a pot size bet. I thought that was what you was supposed to do. Live and learn, right?
03-02-2006, 11:43 AM
Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Standard. You did beat this guy. Just not in this hand. Bet $5 on the turn. You gave him delicious odds.

As soon as I clicked the raise button I was thinking I should have gone at least a dollar more. But 5 would have put him closer to committing his whole stack so maybe that would have pushed him off his chase.
03-02-2006, 12:03 PM
Rabid Dog

Not the same guy, but same table.

Players:
plinkkus (EUR 28.90 in seat 1)
Sander63 (EUR 32.03 in seat 2)
allindoit (EUR 14.22 in seat 3)
IronV (EUR 19.50 in seat 4)
Lomferiz (EUR 18.05 in seat 5)
dandypandy (EUR 13.45 in seat 6)
rabiddog99 (EUR 19.75 in seat 7)
d0nf4tty (EUR 20.80 in seat 8)

Dealer: Lomferiz
Small Blind: dandypandy (0.10)
Big Blind: rabiddog99 (0.20)

rabiddog99 was dealt: Ah - As

plinkkus Fold
allindoit Raise (0.40)
IronV Fold
Lomferiz Fold
dandypandy Fold
rabiddog99 Raise (2.00)
allindoit Call (1.80)

Flop 7h - 2d - Ac

rabiddog99 Check
allindoit Bet (1.60)
rabiddog99 Call (1.60)

Turn 7h - 2d - Ac - 2c

rabiddog99 Check
allindoit Bet (1.00)
rabiddog99 Raise (2.00)
allindoit Call (1.00)

River 7h - 2d - Ac - 2c - 8h

rabiddog99 Bet (5.00)
allindoit Call (5.00)

rabiddog99 shows: Ah - As (a full house, aces full of deuces)

allindoit didn't show hand

rabiddog99 wins: EUR 20.65 (with a full house, aces full of deuces)
Rake: EUR 0.50

allindoit: niiiiiice
allindoit: not
allindoit: fook face
03-02-2006, 12:08 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

As soon as I clicked the raise button I was thinking I should have gone at least a dollar more. But 5 would have put him closer to committing his whole stack so maybe that would have pushed him off his chase.

If pot is close to his stack, I just push on the turn.

I count a $4.5 pot with about $7 behind, so I'm thinking at least put half his stack in.
03-02-2006, 12:17 PM
crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

you've got to hammer the flop harder, as he has the odds to call you on the flop with OESD. .

It was basically a pot size bet. I thought that was what you was supposed to do. Live and learn, right?

He only needs to call $1.50 to win $4.70, so he is basically getting 3:1 on his money. He has 8 outs for the OESD, maybe 7 if he figures you're on a flush draw, but he probably doesn't account for the FD. With 8 outs, he is pretty much 3:1 to hit, so he has almost exact odds to call this bet.
03-02-2006, 12:18 PM
dj newman

1st hand: I like your bet on the flop...hit the turn harder and if he makes his hand....so be it
03-02-2006, 12:24 PM
Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

you've got to hammer the flop harder, as he has the odds to call you on the flop with OESD. .

It was basically a pot size bet. I thought that was what you was supposed to do. Live and learn, right?

He only needs to call $1.50 to win $4.70, so he is basically getting 3:1 on his money. He has 8 outs for the OESD, maybe 7 if he figures you're on a flush draw, but he probably doesn't account for the FD. With 8 outs, he is pretty much 3:1 to hit, so he has almost exact odds to call this bet.

This is where I need to get better probably. I know nothing about the odds.
03-02-2006, 12:36 PM
nutsinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

you've got to hammer the flop harder, as he has the odds to call you on the flop with OESD. .

It was basically a pot size bet. I thought that was what you was supposed to do. Live and learn, right?

He only needs to call $1.50 to win $4.70, so he is basically getting 3:1 on his money. He has 8 outs for the OESD, maybe 7 if he figures you're on a flush draw, but he probably doesn't account for the FD. With 8 outs, he is pretty much 3:1 to hit, so he has almost exact odds to call this bet.

This is where I need to get better probably. I know nothing about the odds.

neither does crime
03-02-2006, 12:37 PM
crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

you've got to hammer the flop harder, as he has the odds to call you on the flop with OESD. .

It was basically a pot size bet. I thought that was what you was supposed to do. Live and learn, right?

He only needs to call $1.50 to win $4.70, so he is basically getting 3:1 on his money. He has 8 outs for the OESD, maybe 7 if he figures you're on a flush draw, but he probably doesn't account for the FD. With 8 outs, he is pretty much 3:1 to hit, so he has almost exact odds to call this bet.

This is where I need to get better probably. I know nothing about the odds.

You MUST know your odds, otherwise you will price people in the hand, and call it a suckout when they hit, when in actuality, they had to call you.
03-02-2006, 12:38 PM
Rabid Dog

Is there any good reading on odds where I can strengthnen that area of my game?
03-02-2006, 12:47 PM
crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Is there any good reading on odds where I can strengthnen that area of my game?

Probably just type in "pot odds" into a search engine and you should find tons of info. You will also need to be able to count "outs" reasonably well, ie: how many cards will make the hand you are drawing to, or what your opponent is likely drawing to.
03-02-2006, 12:56 PM
Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Is there any good reading on odds where I can strengthnen that area of my game?

Probably just type in "pot odds" into a search engine and you should find tons of info. You will also need to be able to count "outs" reasonably well, ie: how many cards will make the hand you are drawing to, or what your opponent is likely drawing to.

Thanks for the idea. I was thinking just putting odds into the search but pot odds would narrow it down more. Outs Im trying to get better at, but there's always one or two that I miss.
03-02-2006, 12:59 PM
dj newman

There should be threads on pot odds around here somewhere...and actually figuring out your opponents outs is an art...difficult to master...you will get better with practice.
03-02-2006, 01:00 PM
Rabid Dog

Well that pretty much pulled up every post on FTR. Im going to check the stickys first before going through all those post. Surely there would be a sticky on the subject.
03-02-2006, 01:04 PM
Rabid Dog

So far Ive found flopped odd stickied. But thats not what your talking about when talking pot odds, right?
03-02-2006, 01:04 PM
dj newman

Check the beginner's circle under frequently asked questions...
03-02-2006, 01:08 PM
crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Well that pretty much pulled up every post on FTR. Im going to check the stickys first before going through all those post. Surely there would be a sticky on the subject.

Do it off the internet, not necessarily from this site, as you will get every post that even has the words in it
03-02-2006, 01:13 PM
Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj newman

Check the beginner's circle under frequently asked questions...

Thanks, I will check there.
03-02-2006, 01:14 PM
Rabid Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Well that pretty much pulled up every post on FTR. Im going to check the stickys first before going through all those post. Surely there would be a sticky on the subject.

Do it off the internet, not necessarily from this site, as you will get every post that even has the words in it

Good suggestion, never thought of that. Thanks
03-02-2006, 01:29 PM
Rabid Dog

Quote:

Quick math for rough estimate of pot odds:

Post-flop with 2 cards to come: # of outs * 4 = estimated pot odds.

On the turn with 1 card to come: # or outs * 2 = estimated pot odds.

So basically to figure pot odds you have to know how to figure outs. When your multi tabling doesnt this get confusing?

So tell me if this is right then, I think it is. You calculate the pot odds and you want to make a bet bigger than the pot odds if your the aggressor. If your being bet into then you have pot odds if his bet is lower than the pot odds. Does that make sense? On target or off target?
03-02-2006, 01:33 PM
Fnord

{ moved to beginers circle before I'm tempted to reply again }
03-02-2006, 02:20 PM
Renton

in the first hand you should raise more preflop.

probably almost double what you raised. At NL25 on party I raise 1.25 minimum, and then another.25 for each limper based on individual judgement.
03-02-2006, 03:27 PM
Greedo017

the good thing about pot odds is if you bet 3/4 the pot then the other guy never has em
03-02-2006, 03:41 PM
geoffm33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

Is there any good reading on odds where I can strengthnen that area of my game?

Here you go, I just posted it today:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=30046
03-02-2006, 03:41 PM
crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

the good thing about pot odds is if you bet 3/4 the pot then the other guy never has em

Don't agree with that statement. Say the pot is $50...and the villain is likely on a flush draw after the flop. If you bet $37.50, he only needs to call $37.50 to win $125, so he is getting 3.3:1 on his money. He has a approx 35% chance to hit the flush if seeing 2 more cards, so he is 2.85:1 to hit the draw, thus making the call to be a correct play.

If the flush misses on the turn, then betting 3/4 pot does not give him odds to call. Pot is now $125, so you bet out $93.75. He needs to call $93.75 to win $312.50...again, getting 3:1 on his money. However, he is only about 18% to hit the flush on the river, or 5.5:1, in which case, they should not call the bet
03-02-2006, 04:06 PM
Xanadu

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

Say the pot is $50...and the villain is likely on a flush draw after the flop. If you bet $37.50, he only needs to call $37.50 to win $125, so he is getting 3.3:1 on his money.

This is incorrect. He needs call 37.50 to win 87.50. He can't win money that is yet to be in the pot (and he wouldn't be winning it anyway because it's his money going in). He's getting only 2.3:1 on his bet. A flush draw does not have odds for this call. Also, in no limit, you can't count on seeing 2 cards to figure your odds. The correct pot odds are somewhere in between. The reason for this is that if you miss your draw on the turn you are likely to have to call an even larger bet for the privelige of seeing the river.

As an aside, anyone been watching the high stakes holdem on tv? The announcers make this same mistake ... say the pot's 20k and a player bets 100k and the rest fold ... the announcers say they just won a 120k pot.
03-02-2006, 04:22 PM
crime002000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime002000

Say the pot is $50...and the villain is likely on a flush draw after the flop. If you bet $37.50, he only needs to call $37.50 to win $125, so he is getting 3.3:1 on his money.

This is incorrect. He needs call 37.50 to win 87.50. He can't win money that is yet to be in the pot (and he wouldn't be winning it anyway because it's his money going in). He's getting only 2.3:1 on his bet. A flush draw does not have odds for this call. Also, in no limit, you can't count on seeing 2 cards to figure your odds. The correct pot odds are somewhere in between. The reason for this is that if you miss your draw on the turn you are likely to have to call an even larger bet for the privelige of seeing the river.

As an aside, anyone been watching the high stakes holdem on tv? The announcers make this same mistake ... say the pot's 20k and a player bets 100k and the rest fold ... the announcers say they just won a 120k pot.

I stand corrected...

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