Playing marginal hands aggressively for fold equity.

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02-26-2006, 10:48 PM
dsaxton

Playing marginal hands aggressively for fold equity.

Here's an interesting and underused tactic.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($442.60)
BB ($1183.05)
UTG ($274.30)
MP ($537.60)
CO ($496.50)
Button ($627)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A:diamond:, 3:diamond:.
4 folds, Hero completes, BB raises to $12, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($24) A:heart:, 8:club:, J:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $20, Hero calls $20.

Turn: ($64) 7:club: (2 players)
Hero bets $30, BB calls $30.

River: ($124) 5:club: (2 players)
Hero bets $80, BB folds.

Final Pot: $204
02-27-2006, 01:11 AM
r8ed

If I know a player will hang around but ultimately let go, I do this. That's a gutsy river bluff though. Any mid-high club calls. Then again, you can't just check here.
02-27-2006, 01:33 AM
bigred

I would change subject to "marginal hands with position". Out of position will get you into trouble sometimes.
02-27-2006, 08:31 AM
gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

I would change subject to "marginal hands with position". Out of position will get you into trouble sometimes.

he is out of position
02-27-2006, 08:33 AM
LeFou

he's also not aggressive until the turn.
Good snag, though. I like aggression on the first couple rounds when i'm weak. Haven't tried much out-of-the-blue stuff...
02-27-2006, 04:21 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

he's also not aggressive until the turn.
Good snag, though. I like aggression on the first couple rounds when i'm weak. Haven't tried much out-of-the-blue stuff...

Not really out of the blue. I'm representing a flush to hopefully get him to fold a better ace rather than passively try to showdown this marginal hand. I might even be betting the best hand on the turn, but I'm not sure, and I definitely don't want to get called. On the river, assuming he requires a high club to call this, it simply isn't likely that he will be able to call, so I almost always win the pot with a strong bet. My hand is basically irrelevant at this point, the bet is profitable for almost strictly mathematical reasons.
02-27-2006, 04:30 PM
Fnord

Very interesting post. Actually I think the river is the least interesting street.

What's up with the flop + turn line? I'm quite certain out opponent has gone into spray mode...
02-27-2006, 04:52 PM
zenbitz

Yeah, if you hit the flush, you donk it? If you had the flush, wouldn't you check?

I guess you are saying "I have a flush, but it's a crappy one so I cannot slow play"
or maybe "Oh, I made a bad flop call with A7 or 77 and hit my miracle turn... you wouldn't happen to be holding 2 clubs, would you?
02-27-2006, 05:23 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Yeah, if you hit the flush, you donk it? If you had the flush, wouldn't you check?

I guess you are saying "I have a flush, but it's a crappy one so I cannot slow play"
or maybe "Oh, I made a bad flop call with A7 or 77 and hit my miracle turn... you wouldn't happen to be holding 2 clubs, would you?

I usually bet out after hitting a flush in situations like these. The other guy will almost always check behind without a flush or similar strong hand if I check, so I bet to hopefully maximize the chances that he will put money in the pot. In this situation, if he doesn't have much of a hand, he'll fold immediately and I avoid any further marginal decisions. Even if he suspects something on the river, he has to make a decision where he can only beat a bluff, and he really has no reason to assume I am, considering this is exactly how I'd play the nut flush oftentimes. I'd check-call the flop, make a callable bet on the turn when I don't want him to check behind, and then put out a massive river bet trying to win a big pot.

And, how would calling the flop with A-7 be "bad?" If you're too afraid to make calls like this facing possible positional aggression, you're inviting people to run over you. Besides, you don't always need the best hand to win a pot, which was kind of the whole point of this post.
02-27-2006, 05:25 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I usually bet out after hitting a flush in situations like these. The other guy will almost always check behind without a flush or similar strong hand if I check, so I bet to hopefully maximize the chances that he will put money in the pot.

QFT

How often have you seen this action?
check, bet, call
check, check,
bet, fold

That being said, you have an opponent who's flipped the spew bit here. Hence I think our lines need to adjust to exploit this.
02-27-2006, 05:28 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I usually bet out after hitting a flush in situations like these. The other guy will almost always check behind without a flush or similar strong hand if I check, so I bet to hopefully maximize the chances that he will put money in the pot.

QFT

How often have you seen this action?
check, bet, call
check, check,
bet, fold

That being said, you have an opponent who's flipped the spew bit here. Hence I think our lines need to adjust to exploit this.

Perhaps. But what if the action goes:

check, bet, call
check, bet, ???

I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.
02-27-2006, 05:36 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Perhaps. But what if the action goes:

check, bet, call
check, bet, ???

I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.

Difficult spot with deep money, the cards are almost irrelevent because neither one of you is likely to have a hand that wants to play a big pot here.

Earlier, in a post of a hand where it was me vs Luke you said you like to c/r when facing a likely c-bet. Why doesn't that same logic apply here? How likely is it that your opponent really has a hand here?
02-27-2006, 05:44 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Perhaps. But what if the action goes:

check, bet, call
check, bet, ???

I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.

Difficult spot with deep money, the cards are almost irrelevent because neither one of you is likely to have a hand that wants to play a big pot here.

Earlier, in a post of a hand where it was me vs Luke you said you like to c/r when facing a likely c-bet. Why doesn't that same logic apply here? How likely is it that your opponent really has a hand here?

I don't like check-raising incredibly marginal hands that can't even stand a call. In that thread, I was referring to having flopped a very strong hand against a preflop raiser who will likely make a continuation bet. I'd almost rather check-raise as a bluff than do it with this hand.
03-03-2006, 02:30 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Perhaps. But what if the action goes:

check, bet, call
check, bet, ???

I like to try to avoid this by taking the lead, and possibly even bluffing out the better hand.

Difficult spot with deep money, the cards are almost irrelevent because neither one of you is likely to have a hand that wants to play a big pot here.

Earlier, in a post of a hand where it was me vs Luke you said you like to c/r when facing a likely c-bet. Why doesn't that same logic apply here? How likely is it that your opponent really has a hand here?

I don't like check-raising incredibly marginal hands that can't even stand a call. In that thread, I was referring to having flopped a very strong hand against a preflop raiser who will likely make a continuation bet. I'd almost rather check-raise as a bluff than do it with this hand.

i like this thinking
air or the goods (or a marginal hand you can assume is good) Ax may very well not win at showdown here.