AOK and a loose table

I just signed up at a poker site that was mentioned by AOK a few months ago. Well, boy did I pick a doozy. I am currently playing at the 10NL tables. The flops are well over 50%!!! I have seen about seven to nine consecutive hands where EVERYONE (6 to 8) limps in preflop.
Before playing I scouted out the various tables, read all of AOK'S strat on 19 hands. I played my best poker ever. I let hand after hand go by. KJ in the early position..tossed it...KJ and than a raise...mucked it!!! JT...KT...you name it, mucked it. I did get KK and broke the bank with it :cool: My question is, how do I run over this table? My reservations are that some knucklehead is gonna limp in with some crappy 5 3, Q2 type hand and draw out on me.
After reading the AOK strat, if the flop hits me, I bet out. These guys call anyway. Only when i flop a full house do i check and see what happens. On one hand, I flop a set and bet out $2 dollars and drove everyone out of the hand. I was so excited about getting a playable hand after 45 minutes of playing only one flop. Only one.
Last point. I have noticed that over the last two weeks as i have begun to discipline myself in cash games where I am not playing as loose. My opponents are noticing how tight I am and are raise 10-20x the blinds when I am in the big blind or when I limp/raise. Are they playing back at me and what should I do? At times my emotions and ego are saying "pop this idiot for a reraise".
Help me out. I am serious about building my br and I need some bullets to add to my holster.

you're playing the table right. break the bank with kk, made sets, etc. don't be afraid to fold to a big reraise. fish only reraise big preflop with a big pocket pair or ak. no need to take a coinflop or worse 85% of the time. The other 15% he'll be a short stack makeing a desperation move - again, no way to know when the 15% is in effect. so let it go.

one really strong hand postflop each 30-45 min is about average - which is why you can play 4 tables when doing 19 hand at a 10nl table. That will give you 6-8 really strong hands per hour and 6-10 additional hands that you'll see part of. So about 15-20 hands per hour (or 1 every 3 minutes. Keeps boredom at bay and moves your br up strongly. Plus when you get donkey kicked (i.e. some fool gets lucky), then you have other tables to keep your mind in the game instead of on tilt.

don't worry about someone "outplaying" your tight style. Hopefully they will be the fool who pushes when you check your made set, fh or nut flush.

also, look for patterns in your betting that give your hand away and use that to trap if you REALLY think they are coming after you. Otherwise just treat them like the idiots they are and make them pay pay pay to catch that miracle card.

gl

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Originally Posted by kashpot

After reading the AOK strat, if the flop hits me, I bet out.

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Could you point out which post has AOK's strat that you're talking about here? I did a search and waded through all of the pages that came up (a lot, as you can imagine :) ) and I'm sure I just missed it but couldn't find it.

A direct link would be great.

Thanks for any help.

ETA: I have this one already-- does AOK have another post on his strat?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=#233508

If you aren't used to multitabling, work your way up. Don't just boot up 4 tables tonight. I like 3 tables because I can keep up with them all and possibly get a couple reads. 4 tables was too much for me, especially with the overlap.

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Originally Posted by drtofu66

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Originally Posted by kashpot

After reading the AOK strat, if the flop hits me, I bet out.

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Could you point out which post has AOK's strat that you're talking about here? I did a search and waded through all of the pages that came up (a lot, as you can imagine :) ) and I'm sure I just missed it but couldn't find it.

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Thats the post right there.

I have played about six hours on fortunepoker and am up $50 bucks after depositing $30 bucks. I have been grinding it out slowly. I started out playing one table, than two and at one point I added a third. The am actively involved in OPERATION PAYDAY. The goal is to grind 50% increases at each table and than move on to another table. This is so none of my opponents can get a good read on me. After I grind my bankroll to $250-300, I move up to the 25nl tables. From there I will move up to the 50nl and than the 100 nl tables. I got the idea from a guy who took an entire weekend and ground a couple bucks into $2000. I am attempting to get to $3000 over the next two weeks. Of course I am aware that I will be vastly underrolled for this action. I am just attempting to psychologically stretch both my thinking and game.

gl buddy. fortune is the place to do it. I pounded from 400 up to about 8k in 15 days there once. You need the cards to fall for you and you need to be focues, unrelenting, fearless, and especially fearless - because you'll be cranking up the limits pretty fast.

remind yourself when the money starts getting big that you are playing a "30 game". Then just do what you gotta do. No fear. But be smart. Be agressive, but don't ever get in a hurry. you can't get there faster by playing faster. You will win what you win, just keep pounding it out.

gl

Gotta love those Fortune Poker amigos lemmingos.

Thread "beating crazy play" can be good read here too. Counterplay massacres those tables sometimes better than usual TAG poker.

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Originally Posted by aokrongly

gl buddy. fortune is the place to do it. I pounded from 400 up to about 8k in 15 days there once.

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Hey Aok, if you don't mind me asking, what stakes are you playing these days?

i'm playing 10 and 20 sng's right now. My miniscule bankroll caught up with me the end of last year and my new job is taking 60 hours a week. So i'm playing about 5-10 hours/week instead of 5-10 hours per day like I used to.

Nothing exciting. But working from a short bankroll is certainly possible. I did it for 9 months - starting each month with $400-600 and ending each month with 2500 to 6000. It's just really risky and when you start bad then you spend alot of time rebuilding. And if you start to lose focus, interest, patience then you can't get anything going. That's what happened to me in December and I'm just now getting my interest back by switching back to sng's.

I don't understand moving on when you get up 50% on a table. You mention so people don't get reads. It's better to stay at that table where YOU get reads and just mix up your game or take advantage of any reads you think they may get.

That seems like a very aggressive goal in a short period of time. $3000 in two weeks starting at below 25NL? I'm sure it's doable but don't get ahead of yourself or put too much pressure to meet that goal because it may affect your game. Just play good poker every time you play. I play 100NL and I would be ecstatic to win 3k in two weeks time.

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Originally Posted by aokrongly

i'm playing 10 and 20 sng's right now. My miniscule bankroll caught up with me the end of last year and my new job is taking 60 hours a week. So i'm playing about 5-10 hours/week instead of 5-10 hours per day like I used to.

Nothing exciting. But working from a short bankroll is certainly possible. I did it for 9 months - starting each month with $400-600 and ending each month with 2500 to 6000. It's just really risky and when you start bad then you spend alot of time rebuilding. And if you start to lose focus, interest, patience then you can't get anything going. That's what happened to me in December and I'm just now getting my interest back by switching back to sng's.

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Yo do yourself a favour this time and play with a proper bankroll.

OK
After two days of playing; boy is this gonna be a ambitious goal to accomplish. But, it can be done.

So far, this is my read on the use of the 19 STARTING HANDS strategy posted by AOK:

At fortunepoker.com the players are THEE worse (read fishiest) poker players that I have come across in my 7 months of play. The stats for those seeing the flop are consistently in the 50-60% levels. Players will call you raise with anything. Today, I nearly cracked my monitor because an idiot kept catching cards with crap! He cracked hand after hand. What? I can already hear some of you say," make him pay to draw out". Tried it. (Hero)"Want to see the next card, you gotta pay big: here's a $1.50-2 bet". (Fish) No problem, I pay whatever you bet...because I can care less about the odds". Grrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, this was tough work. I was on a roll, got my 30 bucks up to 115 in 1 day of play. Than I ran into "draw out city". I will say that my 19 hand play has made me a better overall player. Some of the players actually notice that I am playing only the best hands and IN POSITION. Villian raises in front of me, I chuck AJ,Kj,Qj offsuits in early and mid position. That T8 looks real nice in late position, nope, not gonna do it...MUCKED.

As of this writing I have reversed my losses from$115 down to $48 back to $98. I destacked a couple of unobservant noobs on the 25NL table with a set and a nut straight. Had to do it to em.

As for my being properly bankrolled throughout this experiment; the goal is to see how far and how muck I can do at different levels. When I loss half my buy in at the 50nl table today, I dropped back down to the 10nl and went back at it. Now I have nearly 4 buyin for the 25nl table. Once I grind it up to $200-250 by this weekend, I will move back up to the 50nls.

What I am learning from this, is the loss of fear of betting in a cash game . Once I have bet out $5-10 on one street, who cares what noob bets at me on a 10nl or 25nl table. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by kashpot

Villian raises in front of me or behind me or anywhere on the table, I chuck everything except pocket pairs and AK. EVERYTHING!

What I am learning from this, is how to go broke by playing out of my bankroll while providing myself with the excuse that I'm doing it to conquer fear or some shit.

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Okay. WHY are the fortune poker player fishy? I have issues with the whole concept of relative fishiness, tbh.

I can think of a few reasons why some sites may be fishier than others:

1) Publicity. The sites with the biggest marketing budgets will attract the most new/casual players - Party and, presumably, Stars.

2) Casino-affiliated or sports book sites (Bodog, Pacific) - inveterate gamblers seeking a new thrill.

3) - and I'm already struggling - sites with appealing bonuses and/or free money offers. Are newbies attracted in greater quantities than tight-arsed bonus whores? Possibly.

4) um, country-specific sites? As far as I can see, US players are the worst, or rather there are more bad US players than any other natioinality as online poker has become the most fashionable over there. Scandinavians seem to have a rep as being strong players, and my own limited research into such things does demonstrate that I have made the least (aka lost the most) at the site I play at with the highest proportion or Europeans, especiually Scandos.

But beyond this, I'm uncertain why site X will be fishier than site Y. I am convinced that one set of 10,000 players will have a basically identical bell chart of ability to the next. So I take these kind of comments wiht a pinch of salt UNLESS someone can explain precisely why one site is fishier than another.

Of course, I'm probably missing lots of factors. So who'd like to enlighten me?

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Originally Posted by biondino

1) Publicity. The sites with the biggest marketing budgets will attract the most new/casual players - Party and, presumably, Stars.

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Party and stars are not fishy.

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Originally Posted by biondino

2) Casino-affiliated or sports book sites (Bodog, Pacific) - inveterate gamblers seeking a new thrill.

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BINGO!

Inveterate - that's my word for the day. I take offense to the idea that Americans are the worst at poker. Then again, more money for me, Yeah!

Fortune shares tables with Sportingbook. Also, they do have tons of Europeans who seem to be more action junkies than US players IMO. The Turkish and Spanish are very loose and will chase draws all day. The problem is, at a full table with 5+ seeing the flop you are up against 2+ chasers while holding an overpair often. You bet and they give eachother odds to call. One of those guys seems to hit. I found shorthanded much bettter there.

Anyway, please post your final outcome at the end of two weeks or the end of your bankroll - whichever comes first. This will be a good thing for beginners (and others) to see. Good luck.

Irisheyes, have you ever played the Party $10 SNGs? OMG.

But, seriously, I am convinced that the sites with the biggest number of new players will, by definition, have the biggest number of fish. Party has been the market leader for a while and my own experiences are that it has a larger number of bad players; Stars appears to have recently caught up with Party and, even if a lot of its new customers are decent players, the very nature of the poker hierarchy means that a large proportion of these newcomers will be fishy.

I haven't seen many people refer to Stars as fishy, and while I can't deny that - I've never played there - I can't help but wonder, as it seems to be the FTR regular's site du choix, that FTR regulars' egos may have more to do with its perceived "lack of fishiness" than the actual number of clueless beginners there.

What I said refers specifically to the ring games there. I don't play SnGs.

Yeah party probably will have the highest number of fish in total. Whats really important is the ratio of fish to competent players/nits. Have you ever looked in on a party 50nl 10max game >> fold, fold, fold, fold. Even the 25nl is significantly tighter then Bodog for example.

another aspect of fishiness is whether the site lets you multitable. Try Pacificpoker. No multitabling and the worst players limit for limit that i've ever seen. fortune/sportingbet used to be that bad when they didn't allow multi-tabling. After they allowed it - believe it or not the % of good players increased - especially at 1/2 and up.

SnG's will always have more fish than NL ring. Limit ring will as well, in my opinion.

There is a point of... we'll call it "income potential" where alot of "home pro's" tend to squat. $20-$50 SnG's, certain tournaments like pokerstars MTT's, and massive multitabling of 1/2 and there-abouts ring games. The proof of that was when fortune/sportingbet started multitabling. I would play all day there and as time when on i kept playing the same 10 guys on every table (not all 10 seats but the same guys over and over and over). fortune has way too few tables to spread the wealth out. But, the fun thing is that even the good players get loose and sloppy when the bad players are so awfully bad. But when nl200 got to 32% of players seeing the flop I said, "OK, this isn't 19 hand poker/fishing anymore."

This is just my observations. If you want to turn it into something helpful for the thread read this message into it:

WATCH THE TABLE STATS WHEN THEY CHANGE SIGNIFICANTLY YOU AREN'T IN KANSAS ANYMORE, TOTO!! You can get on a table where they've seen so much 19 hand holdem from me that they know how to counterplay it with finesse. (sorry)

Here is THE AOK FISHSCALE (i.e. how to measure fishiness). It's just my opinion, but i'm a poker genius so base you entire faith system on it and keep your objections to yourselves you peon s... oh wait a minute. I suck. I forgot. Anyway, here it is.

SNG - How fast are players eliminated. The faster the fishier. Pacific low buyin sngs (and party $5 last time I looked) half the table is gone in 20-30 minutes. FISHY FISHY. If you see a table - like Party $30 sng's where it takes 30 minutes for the first player to get eliminated and there are still 5 players after an hour then you're in pro-ville.

Ring - How many players are seeing the flop and what's the average pot size. It's a combo thing. There are situations where good players will see alot of flops and then fold. That's not as fishy as the lumps who will call preflop raises, limp and then stay in after a big raise, etc.

MTT - See SnG. Average is half the field being eliminated in the first hour. Measure it against that. If half the field is gone in 45 minutes then it's superfish. It takes alot of stupidity to get knocked out of a mtt in the first hour. For half the field to do it in 45 minutes is rediculous. If you are playing any mtt where more than half the field survives the first hour then you're playing a better field.

This is my opinion. I related loose play with fish and I relate passive play with fish. TAG normally means less players see the flop, smaller pot sizes and more people staying in any tourney sng or mtt longer.

Aok, 30% of flops means little about player skills IME, those tight nits screw their hands postflop so much that it's ridiculous.

I remember that some dude check-raised your huge turn bet (I thought you have overpair and you pwn him) and he flipped over J9 for junk top pair.

Another "tight regular" decided wisely that he will limp behind his KK on the button against 4 players then go nuts on flop. Yeah right, "tight tough table" ROFL.

Some other bozo (nitty regular) 3-bets MINIMUM his KK/AA if I standard raise my 99. Guess what's going on on 9 high flop. Yes, he rivers his 2 outer :)

C-betting, well I stopped doing this, they always put me on AK, so it's better to rep the king on board with AQ or some other junk, than bet AK on rags.

If there is a draw on board and someone donks it 1/3 pot, it's almost always come hand asking to be turn-screwed.

Most regulars bet their overpairs 1/4-1/5 of pot, regardless of board. Then if a scare card hits they lose their stack and complain on chat like little girls.

30-35% tables on Fortune are still good for 19 hand poker, however expanding raising range a bit (not only big pairs and AK) plus decent postflop with little unpredictability (mixing checking and c-betting for example) and it brings a decent winrate.

50%+ flops well here someone who knows Counterplay strategy can literally pulverise those tables, it's even better than ordinary TAGGy play in those conditions - loose callers alway payoff the maximum with their second best hands and call ridiculous overbets on coordinated board with lousy bottom two pairs. Sets and flopped on turned (for cheap) straights are main "destackers" here. Big, unimproved pairs can be played super-fast high variance way (like huge preflop raise, flop overbet, turn push on most boards).

Also...don't forget about Pot-Limit tables, ultimate land of loose passives with less no-limit tightasses. Players are not bad, they are HORRIBLE. The one minus is, Counterplay doesn't work that well because of inability to overbet with nuts. Fnord's idea of "pot buffing raises in late position" and busting pot-commited shorties that are on a draw or caught a piece of board destroys those tables to the shreds.

Well, that are my thoughts on Fortune Poker low stakes games....

Good evening,

As of right now, I am still grinding the account north, but at a much slower rate than I thought I would. My br has move to a tad under $150. I will post some results of where I am after two weeks. And it wont be a story of me syphonying off my roll playing too high of a limit. Yes, this is a test and a challenge, but, nevertheless, I will drop back down in limits should I begin to lose bad. That is a part of this operation. See the goal, make a plan and move toward it. As the Marine Corps taught me, analyze all avenues of escape and scenarios in the event that your plans go kabooom. So, Irisheyes, you can forget that crap about me losing my roll. Point blank.


22 Feb 2006: $30
25 Feb 2006: $130

Ok, I wish you luck. Next time your on a 100nl Fortune table, look for a player called "All-in4Fun"! :wink:

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The problem is, at a full table with 5+ seeing the flop you are up against 2+ chasers while holding an overpair often. You bet and they give eachother odds to call.

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Sign me up for that;so I can push with my Rockets and Cowboys preflop,and then commit them on the flop with my sets. :lol:

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Sign me up for that;so I can push with my Rockets and Cowboys preflop,and then commit them on the flop with my sets.

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Don't forget to push with AK, if you see AQ's and AJ's calling all the time :)

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Ok, I wish you luck. Next time your on a 100nl Fortune table, look for a player called "All-in4Fun"! :wink:

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Is that you Irish? I've played against this nic a number of times there. Not at the 100nl though.

Yeah its me. I said hi one day when I was at a 25nl table getting re-rolled for 100nl after a 1.3k$ withdrawal. Me, you and Vrax were at the same table. You still play there? How's it going?

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Don't forget to push with AK, if you see AQ's and AJ's calling all the time

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Damn I knew I forgot something! :lol: