now i don't wanna sound arrogant

but i think i won too much for my own good.

here's the story: couple of nights ago i had the best session of my extremely short poker career thus far. I'd recently gone up to playing NL200 with a bankroll of $17000, and won $1000 in one night session, on the end of winning $580 in the day and a half preceding. And yesterday night it started to unravel.

Got back home after teaching, had dinner, relaxed and then fired up for another night session. Lets say it's been a combination of rotten luck and bad play. I mean, make no mistake i was lucky that night. My good hands held up, and the coinflips landed in my favor. In 2 big pots with 2 draws I managed to hit one.

Now my opponents are hitting their mispriced flush draws, going all in with flush draws and hitting them. I'm to blame too for going in with bottom 2 pair and I lost a coin flip. That's okay. I knew my good luck wasn't going to last forever.

But my play can only be described as reckless. I win $60 pots and I don't even feel that good and twice today I've managed to go up about $100 and i lost it back with interest. I'm less judicious with cont bets. I don't know what's happened to me. God... I just managed to get myself bullied by a short stack.

I feel as if winning too much put me on tilt. I've had downswings before. But I don't think i've lost more than $600 or so on a downswing yet in my poker career (but at 200NL it's only 3 buyins, and one was a bad beat and one was a lost flip, straight flush draw all in on flop). I feel exasperated. My mindset is negative. Even winning a nice pot doesn't make me feel happy!

I've been grinding it out for about 6 months, from starting at 0.25/0.50 hunting for bonuses to build my bankroll, to NL25 at party and skins (back when reloads were plentiful and the skins were attached to party). With a bankroll of about $8000 I'd play NL25 and $15+1 SNGs... i mean it was just something for fun i did in spare time that was more rewarding than video games. My dance studio closed over christmas and january, as I went up to 50NL late december - beat it for 2400BBs and went up to 100NL early january and beat that for 1700 BBs and went up to 200 NL about 4 days ago.

I feel as though I have the discipline and the knowledge to beat the game consistently, and I've proven it in the last 6 months. But unfortunately it seems the best 2 days of my poker life has stuffed me up completely. I've been on tilt before from losing... and it's funny in that I haven't lost half of what I won in those 2 days. I feel as though I'm transforming into one of those GambOOLers that I've been beating the stuff out of for the last 6 months.

Who's been there? What do I do? I know most of you wish you had this problem yourselves LOL.

"I'm less judicious with cont bets."
"a bad beat and one was a lost flip, straight flush draw all in on flop"

The first quote is a symptom. The second quote is reality. You've seen the 2nd quote happen before. It's part of poker. Read my sticky on tilt (again if you've alredy read it).

Here's what has happened, imho, you've lost patience. You had a couple big days and thought "oh, THIS IS HOW you REALLY win. I want to do that some more" even though you acknowledge that everything was hitting your way. So what happened is that your Previous Steady Patient, REALISTIC, winning process wasn't good enough any more. So you wanted to turbo charge it.

This is a prime example of SITUATIONAL TILT. Poker play has some similarities to a golf swing. It's very much feel and minor differences can make a huge impact on performance. That difference between playing the poker you know is consistent over the long haul at the tables you know you can beat in a way you know is right... the difference between that and you juiced up play to try to match your previous UNREPEATABLE results is the center of your problem.

Right now (again i'm guessing) you believe in the back of your mind that you can repeat a performance that only happened once in 6 months. Change your belief to this:
"I can't repeat what happened last week (or whenever). It was a fluke occurance that WILL happen every 6 months or so IF I PLAY MY NORMAL GAME 100% OF THE TIME. In the meantime my NORMAL, CONSISTENT, CAREFUL, THOUGHTFUL, ENJOYABLE, SMART, AGRESSIVE, PRUDENT, ETC GAME IS THE ONLY DEFENSE I HAVE AGAINST LOSING ALL MY MONEY AND THE ONLY COURSE OF ACTION I CAN TAKE TO WIN MORE MONEY OVER THE LONG TERM."

That's my advice. gl.

Keep records of every session - highlight winning sessions in green, losing sessions in red, and be appreciative of every winning session whether it's one dollar or a thousand dollars.

Well, i'm sure you want to hear something more substantial than the generic advice a person usually hears, like, "keep your head up" or, "look on the bright side" or, "the glass is half full"... But it's good to get that out of the way first.

You made about $1600 initially and then lost just under half that in the four days of playing 200NL, if i'm understanding correctly. That's still averages out to $200 a day. And i'm sure your BB/100 winrate is very healthy. As i'm sure you know, that is the nature of no limit, wild swings. The probability of getting aces cracked by kings five times in a row is still much less than getting stuck by lightning or even getting into a car accident. It's not a tragedy that is very unlikely. So, generically, i'd say step back for a second and tell yourself that you made $200 a day, which is pretty damn good. Sure, it'd be much better for your mental well-being if was a steady climb and not a wild roller coaster, but that's just not the nature of no limit.

However, you're more concerned with the psychological ramifications of what's happening, worried that you're incredibly psyched out. You don't need anybody to verify this, you know you're psyched out, but you also know it's the not the first time you've been in such a state concerning something in which you're seriously competitive, and you know it's not the first the you have to overcome it. The more serious and competitive one gets with an activity, the more weight it starts to possess and the more pressure it brings, the more it starts to define a person's well being and identity. This is not a bad thing, by any means, it is a very real driving force, but it can be overwhelming at times, overwhelming to the point that it hinders a person's talent and ability. The more you start to realize that you ACtually are good at poker, and the bigger money you start to play for, the more that the pressure to succeed comes with it, the more you start to be defined by the goals you set for yourself, even if these goals are largely subconcious. It is like the "newbie circle of death" you seem to be experiencing, though it's only confined to the fact that you moved to slightly higher stakes, not to poker in general. You had a great mini-run, but when you hit a slight downswing you started to doubt any poker ability you possess.

I would hypothesize that "circle of death" doesn't just apply to beginning poker players, but to any player whenever he enters a new arena of play. It is the concept Andy Beal used to his advantage when he played the pros in that famous first limit hold em match. He knew that even a seasoned veteran would start to clench up if the stakes were made so astronomically high that the pro was taken out of his comfort level. I see this when you talk about losing $600, even when you realize that it's only 3 buy-ins in 200NL. You start to think, damn, that's 6 buy-ins in 100NL, and 24 buy-ins in 25NL, how can I ever get that back?!? And it's easy to forget that when you, say, get all the money in preflop with AA against KK and stack another player, thats $200 coming your way, not 100 or 25. The funny thing is, you realize this, based on the first few days! How easy it was to get the 1600 in the first place. However, based on a high-variance first few days of 200NL, it's still hard to convert it in you mind, convert it to 200NL increments, and $1600 up and $800 down seems so staggering because your mind is in 50 or 100 increments. The $1000+ night isn't even that overwhelming, based on 200NL increments, and i'm sure a player of your calibre will have MAny nights like that.

It doesn't just apply to poker. Everything is like this. I've never danced before, rarely ever, but I played basketball in highschool and college, and I look at a serious dancer as an athlete and view them similarly. Both have their issues with physical limitations, injuries, and psychological roadblocks. For me, basketball took on a different meaning when I was playing seriously and competively, as opposed to just doing it for enjoyment and exercise. It was more rewarding, but much more stressful. As i'm sure you know already, with dance, anytime you take something beyond the level of a hobby and make it a career, even a part time career, and a serious part of your life, this stress will happen, this "circle of death". Some time and reflection, some deep breaths, some serious evaluation will easily get you past it, though.

There is this scene in this movie "hoosiers", about high school basketball in Indiana. I myself didn't really care for the movie and found it corny, but this scene has a good message. The coach takes the players, who are very small-town, to the gym where they will be playing the championship. It is a very large arena, and he has them take a tape measure and measure the height of the basketball rim, and the length of the free-throw line. And he tells them, "See, it's no different than what you've been used to. The free-throw line is still 15 feet, the hoop is still 10 feet, the same as you've always played you're whole lives."

I think a brief period of personal reflection will make you remember that it's still the same thing, the 52 cards falling down in their random patterns, that you've been playing successfully for the past year.

My apologies if this is too long and verbose, I figured it was better than just saying, "hey man, hang in there..."

But... If nothing else, hey man, hang in there.

The same thing happened to me recently. I started playing about 7 months ago and after being breakeven for a while I learned how to win and my bankroll sky-rocketed from about $100 to about 3k in a very short space of time. Poker was easy and life was great.

Then I hit a problem, I was playing 100nl and I dropped 1.2k in less then a week. It was kicked off by a small downswing I think, not $1200 worth of variance but that was the catalyst for loosing the rest. My confidence was shot and I went from pwning 100nl to spewing chips all over the place. I tilted, lost my discipline and started messing with SnGs and 6max and other things which caused more loss etc etc you get the picture.

So, if it wasn't varience, what happened. I think the problem was that because I was doing so well for so long, I EXPECTED to win. I was used to sitting down for a few hours, taking some stacks and leaving happy. So when I hit a bump in the road I wasn't used to it and I started faling appart. I became negative and started preparing myslf to loose everytime I sat down, and when you think negative you cant win so things just got worse.

So what did I do? Basically I took a day off and spent that day thinking about how tomorrow I was going to play solid, disciplined, good poker. Just like I used to. I convinced myself to forget about the losses I'd encurred in the past because tomorrow was fresh. I got back to playing poker in the moment, each and every decision in a bubble, free of outside contamination. I know its all generic advice but thats what I did, and it worked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

The same thing happened to me recently. I started playing about 7 months ago and after being breakeven for a while I learned how to win and my bankroll sky-rocketed from about $100 to about 3k in a very short space of time. Poker was easy and life was great.

Then I hit a problem, I was playing 100nl and I dropped 1.2k in less then a week. It was kicked off by a small downswing I think, not $1200 worth of variance but that was the catalyst for loosing the rest. My confidence was shot and I went from pwning 100nl to spewing chips all over the place. I tilted, lost my discipline and started messing with SnGs and 6max and other things which caused more loss etc etc you get the picture.

So, if it wasn't varience, what happened. I think the problem was that because I was doing so well for so long, I EXPECTED to win. I was used to sitting down for a few hours, taking some stacks and leaving happy. So when I hit a bump in the road I wasn't used to it and I started faling appart. I became negative and started preparing myslf to loose everytime I sat down, and when you think negative you cant win so things just got worse.

So what did I do? Basically I took a day off and spent that day thinking about how tomorrow I was going to play solid, disciplined, good poker. Just like I used to. I convinced myself to forget about the losses I'd encurred in the past because tomorrow was fresh. I got back to playing poker in the moment, each and every decision in a bubble, free of outside contamination. I know its all generic advice but thats what I did, and it worked.

---

That's great advice. Not at all what I meant, at least, about "generic" advice. Generic advice meant something along the lines of, "hey buddy, hang in there, things'll turn around" without any further substance. Though, positive reassurance is still never bad. Salsa, listen to Irisheyes, it is going to be alright.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aokrongly

"I'm less judicious with cont bets."
"a bad beat and one was a lost flip, straight flush draw all in on flop"

The first quote is a symptom. The second quote is reality. You've seen the 2nd quote happen before. It's part of poker. Read my sticky on tilt (again if you've alredy read it).

Here's what has happened, imho, you've lost patience. You had a couple big days and thought "oh, THIS IS HOW you REALLY win. I want to do that some more" even though you acknowledge that everything was hitting your way. So what happened is that your Previous Steady Patient, REALISTIC, winning process wasn't good enough any more. So you wanted to turbo charge it.

This is a prime example of SITUATIONAL TILT. Poker play has some similarities to a golf swing. It's very much feel and minor differences can make a huge impact on performance. That difference between playing the poker you know is consistent over the long haul at the tables you know you can beat in a way you know is right... the difference between that and you juiced up play to try to match your previous UNREPEATABLE results is the center of your problem.

Right now (again i'm guessing) you believe in the back of your mind that you can repeat a performance that only happened once in 6 months. Change your belief to this:
"I can't repeat what happened last week (or whenever). It was a fluke occurance that WILL happen every 6 months or so IF I PLAY MY NORMAL GAME 100% OF THE TIME. In the meantime my NORMAL, CONSISTENT, CAREFUL, THOUGHTFUL, ENJOYABLE, SMART, AGRESSIVE, PRUDENT, ETC GAME IS THE ONLY DEFENSE I HAVE AGAINST LOSING ALL MY MONEY AND THE ONLY COURSE OF ACTION I CAN TAKE TO WIN MORE MONEY OVER THE LONG TERM."

That's my advice. gl.

---

thanks! I'm so overwhelmed by the wholehearted and substantial responses I've received. I was actually expecting only a few one liners. I'd pay good money for that advice.

Expectations going out of kilter is a big hindrance to playing winning poker, and you helped me immensely in correcting that.

Thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SonOfAkira

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I got back to playing poker in the moment, each and every decision in a bubble, free of outside contamination.

---

That's great advice. Not at all what I meant, at least, about "generic" advice. Generic advice meant something along the lines of, "hey buddy, hang in there, things'll turn around" without any further substance. Though, positive reassurance is still never bad. Salsa, listen to Irisheyes, it is going to be alright.

---

It's cliched advice.
But it's good advice. And it's advice that works. It's exactly what you gotta do, just knuckle down. You're exactly right when you say every hand is a vacuum and you gotta play it unaffected by what's gone before whether that's good or bad

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SonOfAkira

As i'm sure you know, that is the nature of no limit, wild swings.

The more serious and competitive one gets with an activity, the more weight it starts to possess and the more pressure it brings, the more it starts to define a person's well being and identity.

The more you start to realize that you ACtually are good at poker, and the bigger money you start to play for, the more that the pressure to succeed comes with it, the more you start to be defined by the goals you set for yourself, even if these goals are largely subconcious.

As i'm sure you know already, with dance, anytime you take something beyond the level of a hobby and make it a career, even a part time career, and a serious part of your life, this stress will happen, this "circle of death". Some time and reflection, some deep breaths, some serious evaluation will easily get you past it, though.

There is this scene in this movie "hoosiers", about high school basketball in Indiana. I myself didn't really care for the movie and found it corny, but this scene has a good message. The coach takes the players, who are very small-town, to the gym where they will be playing the championship. It is a very large arena, and he has them take a tape measure and measure the height of the basketball rim, and the length of the free-throw line. And he tells them, "See, it's no different than what you've been used to. The free-throw line is still 15 feet, the hoop is still 10 feet, the same as you've always played you're whole lives."

I think a brief period of personal reflection will make you remember that it's still the same thing, the 52 cards falling down in their random patterns, that you've been playing successfully for the past year.

My apologies if this is too long and verbose, I figured it was better than just saying, "hey man, hang in there..."

But... If nothing else, hey man, hang in there.

---

Wow, what a post! I can see you put serious effort in that for me, and thank you very much!

BTW, what limits do you play? Have you had this problem and did you / how did you overcome it?

In my limited experience, NL200 is about twice as swingy as NL100 in a relative sense, so it's about 4 times the variance in absolute terms. Reasons - the players are actually worse in that it seems to be the limit where you separate most of the 'grinders' from the 'gamboolers'. I've caught so many more bluffs at this limit. You still gotta be judicious with TPTK, but often it's good. You have to be focused on the game and trust your reads.

Epilogue:
Last night I had a good session again, and I recovered my losses (made $8 or so for the adventure). I've learnt so much about my game and myself the last two days I wouldn't trade it in for anything else.

Finished a bonus this morning and gritted my way to a $60 win... just didn't hit anything except for one set.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SonOfAkira

As i'm sure you know, that is the nature of no limit, wild swings.

The more serious and competitive one gets with an activity, the more weight it starts to possess and the more pressure it brings, the more it starts to define a person's well being and identity.

The more you start to realize that you ACtually are good at poker, and the bigger money you start to play for, the more that the pressure to succeed comes with it, the more you start to be defined by the goals you set for yourself, even if these goals are largely subconcious.

As i'm sure you know already, with dance, anytime you take something beyond the level of a hobby and make it a career, even a part time career, and a serious part of your life, this stress will happen, this "circle of death". Some time and reflection, some deep breaths, some serious evaluation will easily get you past it, though.

There is this scene in this movie "hoosiers", about high school basketball in Indiana. I myself didn't really care for the movie and found it corny, but this scene has a good message. The coach takes the players, who are very small-town, to the gym where they will be playing the championship. It is a very large arena, and he has them take a tape measure and measure the height of the basketball rim, and the length of the free-throw line. And he tells them, "See, it's no different than what you've been used to. The free-throw line is still 15 feet, the hoop is still 10 feet, the same as you've always played you're whole lives."

I think a brief period of personal reflection will make you remember that it's still the same thing, the 52 cards falling down in their random patterns, that you've been playing successfully for the past year.

My apologies if this is too long and verbose, I figured it was better than just saying, "hey man, hang in there..."

But... If nothing else, hey man, hang in there.

---

Wow, what a post! I can see you put serious effort in that for me, and thank you very much!

BTW, what limits do you play? Have you had this problem and did you / how did you overcome it?

In my limited experience, NL200 is about twice as swingy as NL100 in a relative sense, so it's about 4 times the variance in absolute terms. Reasons - the players are actually worse in that it seems to be the limit where you separate most of the 'grinders' from the 'gamboolers'. I've caught so many more bluffs at this limit. You still gotta be judicious with TPTK, but often it's good. You have to be focused on the game and trust your reads.

Epilogue:
Last night I had a good session again, and I recovered my losses (made $8 or so for the adventure). I've learnt so much about my game and myself the last two days I wouldn't trade it in for anything else.

Finished a bonus this morning and gritted my way to a $60 win... just didn't hit anything except for one set.

---

No worries. I'm a writer by profession, so the effort wasn't incredibly serious. I'm more knowledgable with the words than I am the poker. Plus, I was a bit drunk so it flowed out reasonably well, with only a few typos on top. Thank you much, regardless.

I mainly settled into a groove of playing 100NL now, it seems to be the easiest money with all factors considered. The micro-limits are technically the easiest, but the play is so ridiculous, and even an astronomical BB/100 winrate isn't netting you serious cash. I started playing 50NL, and did pretty good until I realized I was getting frustrated with what I've learned is common knowledge around here, that it is a rock garden, and have flirted with all the limits, even as high as 1000NL, though I only played 200, 400, and 1000 one night each. I broke even at 200 and 400 and won about 3/4 a buyin at 1000, but quickly realized that I wasn't nearly comfortable enough throwing that much money around, even if I have it at my disposal. With 100NL, even a decent winrate is still taking home some nice cash.

In how this pertains to the topic at hand, I think I go through what you're going through every few days! Though not as severe. I'll occasionally play micro limits, not the smallest but the one right above, for two reasons. 1, if i'm in a poker mood but am not in the best state to play, either drunk or fatigued or both, and 2, if I feel a lack of confidence, that I might be playing with scared money. Save for one time, this has always done the trick.

I've always been prone to psychological duress when doing something competively, and poker is no different. I've even more prone to the less discussed but equally dangerous anti-tilt. The feeling you get, the one you describe and AOK verifies, due to an over-abundance of confidence where you feel you can do no wrong, and before you know it you've donked away a few hands, and you don't just come back to earth, but sink below, and wonder how could you ever have been so foolish to think YOU are actually good at poker. There is much talk about the circle of death affecting newbies, and it obviously is the most sever for a newbie, but i'd say that everybody save for the most seasoned of veterans will go through it periodically.

The main point i'd like to make is that the newbie circle of death has little to do with being a newbie to poker. It has to do with being a newbie to taking poker seriously, regardless of your experience and skill level. For myself, I realized settling into a groove was the best thing, and figuring out whether I wanted to try to crush a smaller game, or just win decently at a bigger game, or where in between. This experience you had I believe had much to do with just upsetting your groove, being removed from your comfort level, the newbie circle of death but on a smaller scale with different parameters, and once this passes you'll do fine. Experience in anything, as i'm sure you know, routine, though takes away from the excitement somewhat does much to alleviate these pschyological hangups, and is +EV, if you're treating poker like a job, even a part time job.

Besides beating the devil out of the micro stakes players, still something i'd recommend for stress relief (assuming you don't run into pelion or freechus) I have one other recommendation. Try playing a different variaton of poker that you're unfamiliar with. Maybe it's omaha or seven-card-stud, for small stakes or even play money. It'll not only improve you're overall poker ability, it will, after wading through some serious confusion (I didn't know you had to use two and only two of your hole cards in omaha when I played my first hand), make you realize just how much knowledge you have in texas hold 'em.

I'm glad to hear things are turning around.

Yeah, I've been thinking.

I'm happy that I've recouped my losses with interest. I have a lot of work to do, and also preparing to get my teaching qualifications, so I'll be having a short break from poker, and it couldn't be better timed.

NL100 is much less of an emotional roller coaster for me. But I don't want to move down. I mean over 17 hours i'm making 38BB/hour (3 tabling) net of bonuses, and at 100NL I make 31BB/hour over a sample of 54 hours. So I'm making 2.5 as much in NL200, and I have confidence in my ability there. I'm hoping that I'll 'acclimatize' to the swings and the amplitude of the money i'm throwing around (I *am* only 20). I mean I wasn't comfortable when I moved from nl25 to nl50, and nl100 seemed like huge stakes to me at first... I think having had the last two days experience will help me there.

It's a funny thing... I mean we talk about bankroll management. 15 buy ins is standard and 20 is conservative. I'm looking at a bankroll of 18k... so that's like 90 buy ins, and still I'm not yet comfortable with it.

And coincidentally, I've recently had some of my friends who know that I'm pretty good at this game called poker (I destroy them in person HAHA) msn me to play with them. Obviously they have neither the skill, guts or bankroll to play at my limits, so we might play NL10 or something... and I must admit it's therapeutic! Just gotta make sure you don't develop bad habits like going all in with TPTK.

Oh, and I do enjoy other games... couldn't beat the fishies at 7-stud, but can beat 5 card draw. As for Omaha... absolutely no clue! I once accidentally joined a 15+1 PL Omaha Hi-Low tourney by mistake. I was in the middle of an upswing and won the damn thing! But I seriously didn't have a clue what i was doing. I just folded a lot and raised like hell on a pretty hand and tripled up and took it from there.

(I didn't know you had to use two and only two of your hole cards in omaha when I played my first hand)

Haha I am a winning omaha player these days and I STILL make this mistake from time to time.

Some great posts in this thread. Cheers all!