KK under pressure (semi-deep stacks)

MrOstkaka is TAG and has been playing solid poker. plus-minus however is a total fish, and I really don't mind playing for stacks with him on almost any flop with KK. Standard laydown right? PS: I'm not sure if he was telling the truth, but I asked him later about the hand and he said he indeed had KK beat.

Also note that I had just won a $350E pot off plus-minus 2 hands ago, then the next hand I proceeded to take his last $50 with KK vs TT all in preflop, I have been quite active. And now this hand comes up...

Game # 235633132 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0,50/1,00 - Table "Catarroja"
Game ended 2006-02-01 04:18:50 GMT+01:00


Players:
MRnoblesse (EUR 94,00 in seat 1)
plus-minus (EUR 50,00 in seat 2)
MrOstkaka (EUR 160,88 in seat 3)
bdawg56kg (EUR 402,13 in seat 4)

syren13 (EUR 57,50 in seat 5)
eyedol_82 (EUR 96,10 in seat 6)

Dealer: eyedol_82
Small Blind: MRnoblesse (0,50)
Big Blind: plus-minus (1,00)

bdawg56kg was dealt: Kh - Kc

MrOstkaka Call (1,00)
bdawg56kg Raise (5,00)
syren13 Fold
eyedol_82 Fold
MRnoblesse Fold
plus-minus Call (4,00)
MrOstkaka Call (4,00)

Flop Th - Ts - 8d

plus-minus Check
MrOstkaka Check
bdawg56kg Bet (10,00)
plus-minus Fold
MrOstkaka Raise (25,00)
bdawg56kg Call (15,00)

Turn Th - Ts - 8d - 2c

MrOstkaka Bet (46,00)
bdawg56kg Fold
MrOstkaka Payback (46,00)

MrOstkaka didn't show hand

na.
reraise that flop.
find out if he wants to play for stacks.
If he does then KK maybe no good. TT 88 and AA are the only hands you should really fear here as i cant see him holding tx unless its TT as a tag.
Cold calling the flop without the intention of raising the turn isnt my play here.
I think you may be giving him too much credit here. If he has a ten then unless he can put you on QQ+ its unlikely he plays the flop that fast.

I question his play on the turn. The biggest blank of all time falls and he almost pots it. Either he plays his monsters very fast or he's protecting a hand weaker than yours. The only hand that may play this way and have you beat is AA. But would he coldcall preflop with AA and another (loose) caller?

Okay, here was my thought process during the hand. Like I said in my first post, villian here is a solid thinking player, and is probably aware that I am as well. On the flop I bet out $10 into a $16 pot, which is pretty standard for me. Now he CR's to $25. I figure his range here is somewhat wide, Tx/88/J9/pocket pair/possibly air. I am 99% sure he doesn't have AA. So I can either reraise, fold, or call. If I raise, I would probably make it $60 to go, which is definitely an option, but hear me out. I figure folding is not an option. Calling the CR pretty much tells villian I have a made hand, most likely an overpair. He knows I'm not a calling station and that I wouldn't play AK this way. Therefore I really think that calling the CR versus 3-betting is sending villian the same info (that I have an overpair). When he bets the turn like that I really can't see anything I'm ahead of besides a total bluff. He didn't seem like the type of player to make huge bluffs or continued semibluffs out of position, but if he was making a move then I tip my hat.

Also, I don't understand why you think his hand rage is so narrow here. He has lots of implied odds seeing how deep the stacks are, plus a horrid calling station that will stack off with TPNK and never fold a draw. I think Tx/J9 is definitely in his range here. And how can you say that his fastplay doesn't indicate a big hand? That's ridiculous unless you have seen him in a similar situation. Given the stack sizes, his turn bet leaves him with about $90 on the river, a perfect amount for a river push in relation the pot size. This is in hopes that I won't be able to let go of AA/KK here. Thoughts?

Someone mentioned you should reraise on the flop. I think this is a terrible play, as all it does is cause you to lose more money to a 10 or 8-8.

The line this player is executing doesn't really make any sense. I can't think of why he would play a 10 like this (particularly on the turn), but I'm also not sure what other hands he would play like this. Perhaps he check-raised the flop with a middle pair or similar hand, and then after realizing on the flop that you probably had a higher pair, decided to try to move you off your hand with a massive turn bet. This is just a guess.

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Okay, here was my thought process during the hand. Like I said in my first post, villian here is a solid thinking player, and is probably aware that I am as well. On the flop I bet out $10 into a $16 pot, which is pretty standard for me. Now he CR's to $25. I figure his range here is somewhat wide, Tx/88/J9/pocket pair/possibly air. I am 99% sure he doesn't have AA. So I can either reraise, fold, or call. If I raise, I would probably make it $60 to go, which is definitely an option, but hear me out. I figure folding is not an option. Calling the CR pretty much tells villian I have a made hand, most likely an overpair. He knows I'm not a calling station and that I wouldn't play AK this way. Therefore I really think that calling the CR versus 3-betting is sending villian the same info (that I have an overpair). When he bets the turn like that I really can't see anything I'm ahead of besides a total bluff. He didn't seem like the type of player to make huge bluffs or continued semibluffs out of position, but if he was making a move then I tip my hat.

Also, I don't understand why you think his hand rage is so narrow here. He has lots of implied odds seeing how deep the stacks are, plus a horrid calling station that will stack off with TPNK and never fold a draw. I think Tx/J9 is definitely in his range here. And how can you say that his fastplay doesn't indicate a big hand? That's ridiculous unless you have seen him in a similar situation. Given the stack sizes, his turn bet leaves him with about $90 on the river, a perfect amount for a river push in relation the pot size. This is in hopes that I won't be able to let go of AA/KK here. Thoughts?

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1. Check-raising that flop is standard if you are a AK/AQ etc c-bettor. Id make it too and then hammer the turn and see if you really like you're hand. Id also do it with any two cards but position suggets something predictable Axs/PP or other stuff. Does this guy limp J9s for example opr does he raise? So opps play is not particularly surprising, considering he called UTG preflop and your tendancy to c-bet.
2. Dont agree Tx utg is playable as a limp here despite big stacks, but open to discussion.
3. Yes you call the flop. That doesnt MEAN you have a big overpair and that he knows it. Its a possible option certainly. Consider it this way. You make standard preflop raise and standard c-bet. Opp decides youre c-betting, raises you and you just call. Opp considers any two are enough to push you around here. Your play doesnt tell him you have an overpair it tells him you've cold called his check raise. Maybe you think ace high is good here? maybe you have an overpair? Maybe you just think hes making a play and want to see how the turn develops? Thus he then pumps a big turn bet in knowing from your flop play that you dont like the way this pot has developed or else you wouldnt have called on the flop (except if you have a complete monster) Therefore his turn play is predictable, despite whateva cards he has. Your cards are being played here imo. If i'd have called that check raise on the flop if would have been with the intention of raising the turn and deciding just how strong opps hand is here, not folding because he pumps a lot of money into the pot after seeing how tamely (it appears) you played the flop.
A thinking player here knows not only that you are suggesting an overpair by your flop play but also that you are being very weak in playing this hand and that aggression may just very well push you off a decent sized pot.
4. i didnt say he wouldnt play Tx so fast i said i thought it unlikely UNLESS he was good enough to put you on a big overpair and he had you real beat here. Hence the turn is odd. Why bet so much unless he thinks you get too attachedto big pairs? (do you?) or else why fire so big into a pot with the nuts. He wants you to stay in and not to be frightened off with a hand that may very well pay him now you called the check raise on the flop.
5. i just feel that the turn makes no sense unless he is making a play with nothing or a weaker hand (pp) or he puts you on the Ten and he has 88. The alternative is that opp thinks you get far too attached to overpairs (which from your posts i dont think you do!) and has decided to make you pay, but again that makes no sense.

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Someone mentioned you should reraise on the flop. I think this is a terrible play, as all it does is cause you to lose more money to a 10 or 8-8.

The line this player is executing doesn't really make any sense. I can't think of why he would play a 10 like this (particularly on the turn), but I'm also not sure what other hands he would play like this. Perhaps he check-raised the flop with a middle pair or similar hand, and then after realizing on the flop that you probably had a higher pair, decided to try to move you off your hand with a massive turn bet. This is just a guess.

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I agree with all of this. Although i think play on the flop should give you enough information to get away from 88 or Tx imo.

Okay, here's a bit of info that I forgot to include in my original post. I just came accross it recently. In a previous hand I get A9 of hearts on the button, villian in this hand (MrOstkaka) limps UTG, and I raise 4xBB, he calls, HU to the flop. Flop is Axx all spades. Flop goes check/check. Turn is a blank, he checks I bet $6 he calls. River is another blank he checks I bet $10 he calls and flips A5 clubs (actually it turned out to be a split pot).

Anyway, in response to your post miffed, here's what I think. It's always possible that he might have air and just be moving me off my hand, but based on my previous history with him and observing how he plays, he really didn't seem like the type of player to run these huge bluffs. Hard to explain, just a gut-instint type thing, but the possibility is always there. Also, this is kind of off-topic, but I think it might actually be a "leak" sometimes when we develop as poker players and move up in stakes that we don't see things for what they are on the surface. Sometimes when a guy bets big it means exactly that, that he has a big hand. I'm not saying this justifies my laydown here, just pointing out something that we may have forgotten from 25NL.

Also, keep in mind that raising the turn pot-commits you here. But more importantly, why raise the turn? If villian is behind, he is drawing very slim, so what's the point of raising. You think he calls a push w/99 here? Why not call and let him bluff the river if he does have air or extract a little more with a small value bet?

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Why bet so much unless he thinks you get too attachedto big pairs? (do you?) or else why fire so big into a pot with the nuts.

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Because he wants to play for stacks and a big pocket pair is the only reasonable hand that will pay off trips/boat here.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Someone mentioned you should reraise on the flop. I think this is a terrible play, as all it does is cause you to lose more money to a 10 or 8-8.

The line this player is executing doesn't really make any sense. I can't think of why he would play a 10 like this (particularly on the turn), but I'm also not sure what other hands he would play like this. Perhaps he check-raised the flop with a middle pair or similar hand, and then after realizing on the flop that you probably had a higher pair, decided to try to move you off your hand with a massive turn bet. This is just a guess.

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Good points, I agree. How would you go about playing this hand dsaxton? Aside, how bad would a flop check be here?