have standards changed

Printable View

12-29-2005, 05:04 AM
bunthorne

have standards changed

Sorry, all, you probably think I'm a ranter and raver, and you're probably right, but I'm interested in people's thoughts.

When I first learned about poker I learned from the writings of Sklansky, Brunson, Cloutier and McEvoy, from watching others and a little coaching from an experienced player.

Some of the basic rules which I learned do not seem to be followed today. I'm interested not learn whether or not this is bad play by weak players or that the game has changed significantly over time. I guess I get really gutted when I lose to players who break these "rules", some of which are:

1. When not in position (ie UTG, SB or BB) you need a VERY strong hand to play, especially if raised, as you are out of position. E.g you should not play 76s from early position, but can raise with it on the button. These days players seem to call raises with such hands from ANY position. The problem I have is putting players on hands as they might play any rubbish from any position.

2. Do not draw to a flush or straight unless you are receiving the correct odds. Many players seem to draw even though the value is not there, and what makes it worse is that they often hit!

3. You only draw to a flush when you are sure that, if you hit it, you will have the nuts. So you don't draw to a flush (or a straight for that matter)when there is a pair on the board as if you hit you can lose to a full house. Similarly, you don't draw to a flush with eg 65s with two suited cards on the flop as you could lose to a larger flush. You must also be wary of drawing to a straight only to lose to a bigger straight.

4. You have to be prepared to lay hands down. Cloutier gives a good example of this. You raise in middle position with AK, the button and bb call you. Flop comes down AJ6 rainbow. The bb leads at the pot with a pot sized bet - you must FOLD. Yes, FOLD - even though you have TPTK. Why? Because the bb will put you on AK as a possible hand and will not lead unless he can beat this - he eithr has AJ, JJ or 66. Again, though, this rule is often ignored. If I'm in the bb in such a situation I might lead at the pot to REPRESENT such a hand and get pissed off when I'm called by AK, AQ or even AT.
12-29-2005, 11:58 AM
Rondavu

The fatal flaw in poker books, is that often they're teaching you how to play high stakes poker on low stakes tables.
12-29-2005, 12:40 PM
SmackinYaUp

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunthorne

Some of the basic rules which I learned do not seem to be followed today. I'm interested not learn whether or not this is bad play by weak players or that the game has changed significantly over time. I guess I get really gutted when I lose to players who break these "rules"

Improve your postflop game. You need to recognize when you're beaten and constantly ask yourself, why is this guy suddenly betting into me? Can I bet the worst case scenario? How likely is it that I am ahead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunthorne

1. When not in position (ie UTG, SB or BB) you need a VERY strong hand to play, especially if raised, as you are out of position. E.g you should not play 76s from early position, but can raise with it on the button. These days players seem to call raises with such hands from ANY position. The problem I have is putting players on hands as they might play any rubbish from any position.

Its a very good start in NL to begin a hand with better hole cards, but like I said, you need to work on postflop skills. Opponents will always show down ridiculously stupid hands. Sounds like you're playing in some great games but should tighten up your showdowns and not get it allin unless you have the best hand the board allows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunthorne

2. Do not draw to a flush or straight unless you are receiving the correct odds. Many players seem to draw even though the value is not there, and what makes it worse is that they often hit!

Flushes will hit quite often when people chase on both streets, but not often enough to make it a profitable play. Flushes are easy to recognize, so don't pay off someone's stupid mistake - if you pay them off every time then its not such a mistake for them to chase. Implied odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunthorne

3. You only draw to a flush when you are sure that, if you hit it, you will have the nuts. So you don't draw to a flush (or a straight for that matter)when there is a pair on the board as if you hit you can lose to a full house. Similarly, you don't draw to a flush with eg 65s with two suited cards on the flop as you could lose to a larger flush. You must also be wary of drawing to a straight only to lose to a bigger straight.

That is completely correct. Let them chase on bad boards, but make sure you have the goods when its all-in time. Make sure you're the one with the full house and you're the one with the big straight. Don't pay off their weak hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunthorne

4. You have to be prepared to lay hands down. Cloutier gives a good example of this. You raise in middle position with AK, the button and bb call you. Flop comes down AJ6 rainbow. The bb leads at the pot with a pot sized bet - you must FOLD. Yes, FOLD - even though you have TPTK. Why? Because the bb will put you on AK as a possible hand and will not lead unless he can beat this - he eithr has AJ, JJ or 66. Again, though, this rule is often ignored. If I'm in the bb in such a situation I might lead at the pot to REPRESENT such a hand and get pissed off when I'm called by AK, AQ or even AT.

Don't bluff calling stations. Be patient, hit your hands hard, and gut them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

The fatal flaw in poker books, is that often they're teaching you how to play high stakes poker on low stakes tables.

I think you have this backwards. The poker books teach the correct way to play low stakes poker against calling station fish. The only flaw I can see in poker books is trying to apply low stakes strategy to high stakes games.
12-29-2005, 01:24 PM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

The fatal flaw in poker books, is that often they're teaching you how to play high stakes poker on low stakes tables.

I think you have this backwards. The poker books teach the correct way to play low stakes poker against calling station fish. The only flaw I can see in poker books is trying to apply low stakes strategy to high stakes games.

I've only read and/or dabbled a small number of books, but all the examples I have ever seen are for games like NL 10/20 and such. There are books like small stakes hold em which are different of course.

You can't tell me a guy who has been playing high stakes poker for 25 years is going to have a good perspective on how to play .10/.25 poker when he writes a book. I won't believe you.
12-29-2005, 01:42 PM
SmackinYaUp

Well, I'm not an expert, but what I meant is that I've never seen a book containing strategy for beating games like 10/20NL - all the strategy I've ever read in books is very straight forward ABC TAG. I imagnie the NL section in supersystem was geared towards higher stakes games, but it didn't go into a lot of detail.
12-29-2005, 02:47 PM
mb2447

Not playing trash hands OOP, fine. Not drawing unprofitably, fine. Although implied odds can sometimes tip a decision.

But such hard and fast rules as "do not draw to a flush on a paired board" or "do not draw to a straight on a two-flush board" or folding TPTK as in example #4 are pretty much worthless. It is entirely situation-dependent, and a question of game theory.

Any decent player has to be flexible enough so that his own play is not predictable, and so that his play can adapt to whoever is sitting at the table in question. Your "rules" seem to be geared towards super-tight, super-predictable play...and like it or not, thats not the only style of play that you're going to encounter.

It's easy to be frustrated at the often-ridiculous moves that people these days make, especially at low limits. But if your goal at poker is to make money, then you have to be adaptable. That, or restrict yourself to the tables that follow the "rules" that you mentioned, so that you're comfortable.

As a whole, yes, standards have probably changed for the AVERAGE hold'em player. Aggression in NL is a huge part of the game, betting and raising with draws or nothing at all just cause you sense weakness.