Preflop big pair detection

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12-27-2005, 10:40 AM
Miffed22001

Preflop big pair detection

Two situations early in my poker experiences i thought id never avoid ever, AAvsKK and QQvsAA/KK
Well, i now think i can.
This is typical of how you dont play QQ or even KK i think

-----HAND 3------
Game #1194671604: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2005/12/27 - 10:17:26 (ET)
Table "Pawtucket" Seat 1 is the button.
Seat 1: Stelou001 ($26 in chips)
Seat 2: Svartgul ($6 in chips)
Seat 3: Allan01 ($37.46 in chips)
Seat 4: Miffed ($37 in chips)
Seat 5: kitchie ($39.08 in chips)
Seat 6: Foxhunt33 ($82 in chips)
Svartgul: posts small blind $0.50
Allan01: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Miffed [Kc Ks]
Miffed: calls $1 <<<tight image, card dead
kitchie: folds
Foxhunt33: raises to $4 <<<aggressive
Stelou001: folds
Svartgul: folds
Allan01: folds
Miffed: raises to $12
Foxhunt33: raises to $82 and is all-in <<<donk>>>
Miffed: is all-in $25
Returned uncalled bets $45 to Foxhunt33
----- FLOP ----- [Jh 2s As]
----- TURN ----- [Jh 2s As][Ts]
----- RIVER ----- [Jh 2s As Ts][9d]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Foxhunt33: shows [Qh Qd] (A Pair of Queens, Ace high)
Miffed: shows [Kc Ks] (A Pair of Kings, Ace high)
Miffed collects $72.50 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $75.50 Main pot $72.50 Rake $3
Board [Jh 2s As Ts 9d]
Seat 1: Stelou001 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Svartgul (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Allan01 (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Miffed showed [Kc Ks] and won ($72.50) with A Pair of Kings, Ace high
Seat 5: kitchie folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Why is this a bad play? Ok, the limp reraise firstly stinks or KK/AA that makes just pushing QQ a poor play. Also, if opp reraises here to say $15, the only hand that really pushes is AA, i think KK may also but i think at least you give yourself a better idea to jusge how good your opps hand is. AK/QQ probably should call here and play the flop appropriatly. QQ should not push here. I insta-called this becasue i knew opp overated his hands both preflop and post flop, therefore it was unlikey he held AA i thought.
Anybody agree with my line of thought if im in opps position here?
12-27-2005, 11:54 AM
Fnord

6 handed with a 37bb stack, it's not even a decision.
12-27-2005, 12:55 PM
r8ed

His preflop betting wreaks of AA. Why wouldn't you even consider he has it? Call regardless, but that's a classic AA preflop play by him.
12-27-2005, 01:54 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

His preflop betting wreaks of AA. Why wouldn't you even consider he has it? Call regardless, but that's a classic AA preflop play by him.

wrong
this how QQ plays
and thats what he turned over. Classic 100NL player who overates QQ preflop against a big reraise or limp reraise
12-27-2005, 02:00 PM
Fnord

QQ should play for stacks here with a 37bb effective stack size.
12-27-2005, 02:35 PM
r8ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

His preflop betting wreaks of AA. Why wouldn't you even consider he has it? Call regardless, but that's a classic AA preflop play by him.

wrong
this how QQ plays
and thats what he turned over. Classic 100NL player who overates QQ preflop against a big reraise or limp reraise

That's how I play AA preflop. If they reraise my reraise it's straight to stacks. QQ, I just call the reraise and take it from there. So, how am I wrong? I'm not the only one doing this.
12-27-2005, 03:03 PM
Fnord

This hand is silly because of the small effective stack size. AK might even want to get it all-in...
12-27-2005, 04:10 PM
Irisheyes

I don't mind his push because of the small stack sizes.

Full stacks I see QQ AI preflop VERY rarely at 100NL.
12-27-2005, 04:13 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

Full stacks I see QQ AI preflop VERY rarely at 100NL.

...but they love to get it all-in with an over-pair post-flop after just calling your raise.
12-27-2005, 04:18 PM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

Full stacks I see QQ AI preflop VERY rarely at 100NL.

...but they love to get it all-in with an over-pair post-flop after just calling your raise.

true.
12-27-2005, 04:33 PM
joshuadzl

Unless my opponent shows me AA, in a ring game, if I'm given the oppurtunity to put all of my money in with Kings, I'm doing it without hesitation 95% of the time. I don't think you made the wrong play.
12-27-2005, 04:58 PM
Miffed22001

I asked if QQ made the wrong play open pushing into my limp reraise?
anybody?
12-27-2005, 05:00 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I asked if QQ made the wrong play open pushing into my limp reraise?
anybody?

Right or wrong, I probably play it the same way.
12-27-2005, 05:03 PM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I asked if QQ made the wrong play open pushing into my limp reraise?
anybody?

Yes but its not the most horrible play (sans read) I've ever seen because of your stack. If you have a full stack its horrible.
12-27-2005, 05:09 PM
Miffed22001

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=220886#220886

Check this, that i know fnord posted on. I believe opp showed QQ, if he reraises preflop with QQ against the AA and AA pushes QQ is fold. Same here, QQ reraises me, despite my limp/reraise. When i push he folds. QQ is avoidable, perhaps i'd also argue so is KKvs AA but much less likely
12-27-2005, 05:12 PM
Pelion

In that thread both players are sat with huge stacks. Everyone here has said it was ok because of the stack sizes but horrible with full stacks.
12-27-2005, 05:17 PM
Miffed22001

So we argue that 1/3 of your stack, dominated by two hands AA/KK and a flip with one other AK is worth it here if you are full stacked?
Opp has basically half his stack to call me here. Still a good call?
Do u make the same call in an mtt/sng, QQ for 1/2 your stack?
12-27-2005, 05:26 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Do u make the same call in an mtt/sng, QQ for 1/2 your stack?

ICM math and the different game texture (rising blinds) both color that hand very differently.
12-27-2005, 05:31 PM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

So we argue that 1/3 of your stack, dominated by two hands AA/KK and a flip with one other AK is worth it here if you are full stacked?
Opp has basically half his stack to call me here. Still a good call?
Do u make the same call in an mtt/sng, QQ for 1/2 your stack?

I think the point was thats its ok if you ARE'NT full stacked as more hands will push or call against you with a small stack. In a full stacked $100 NL game you generally don't play for stacks preflop with QQ because noone without at least KK is playing for stacks. I havnt actually played at those stakes but thats how i understood the other posts.
12-27-2005, 05:40 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

So we argue that 1/3 of your stack, dominated by two hands AA/KK and a flip with one other AK is worth it here if you are full stacked?
Opp has basically half his stack to call me here. Still a good call?
Do u make the same call in an mtt/sng, QQ for 1/2 your stack?

I think the point was thats its ok if you ARE'NT full stacked as more hands will push or call against you with a small stack. In a full stacked $100 NL game you generally don't play for stacks preflop with QQ because noone without at least KK is playing for stacks. I havnt actually played at those stakes but thats how i understood the other posts.

dont worry about not playing there.
You made a valid point :)
SO you all think this is a no brainer with QQ then because of my stack size? regardless of how i decided to play this against this opp/stack size and coniering my own position/stack size etc
12-27-2005, 05:43 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

SO you all think this is a no brainer with QQ then because of my stack size?

Without a very strong read, you want it all-in pre-flop. However, if I knew it was the resident FTR nit and knew you didn't know I was capable of this fold...
12-27-2005, 06:40 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

SO you all think this is a no brainer with QQ then because of my stack size?

Without a very strong read, you want it all-in pre-flop. However, if I knew it was the resident FTR nit and knew you didn't know I was capable of this fold...

nit
i get the feeling you;re being mean to me again fnord :(
12-30-2005, 10:15 AM
littlewashu

right or wrong

Id say right with one exception being the fact that you where less than half his stack i might have just called his $4 raise in this case. Am i right or wrong if you just call him doesnt this give you position on this guy. I might try to bully you some but that all in by him was silly
12-30-2005, 03:14 PM
Lukie

QQ and KK get it all-in preflop for a third of a normal full stack in 6-max. *shrugs* I like the way villain played it moreso then you to be honest.
12-30-2005, 04:55 PM
BankItDrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

SO you all think this is a no brainer with QQ then because of my stack size?

Without a very strong read, you want it all-in pre-flop. However, if I knew it was the resident FTR nit and knew you didn't know I was capable of this fold...

nit
i get the feeling you;re being mean to me again fnord :(

hehehe... ignore any insults from him, it's not worth the online stress.

I don't think that villain here was trying to see a flop. Everyone knows that the chance of an A or K on the board with two held in hand is near 50%. It seemed like he was just trying to get his money in when he thought he had the best hand. Fortunately for us, we held KK and whooped 'em. I would have just called the $14 re-raise to see a flop and go from there.