America needs to take care of its senior citizens better.

I dont kno how many people here come in contact with medicare and the like. It blows. Hard.
If my family is having trouble dealing with it, it must be a shit hole for people who dont even have a computer to look things up.
It must be reall shity for senior citizens who dont have famillies taking care of them and dont have anyone supporting them financially.

We had some political commentary before just a few days ago. Well this is our government in action.
I dont care which side ur on. This shit needs to be fixed.
No one cares about something thats broken until they run into it. Trust me guys this shit is broken. Trust me guys if anything needs to be fixed. Its this.

For a board full of 2o year olds this probably means nothing so this post will disappear in about 1 day. But goddamn. The system is broken.

THat is all.

You should take a look at social security too... if that doesn't get fixed soon, we'll all have to work until we're 80. Believe me, I contribute to my retirement plan from work and have my own investments and all that good stuff, but some people who will need to rely on suplemental income when they retire are going to be screwed big time.

I agree, and heres a bump to keep it alive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by badandy519

You should take a look at social security too... if that doesn't get fixed soon, we'll all have to work until we're 80. Believe me, I contribute to my retirement plan from work and have my own investments and all that good stuff, but some people who will need to rely on suplemental income when they retire are going to be screwed big time.

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Ya right now im worried about my grandparents and medicare
Next ill be worried about my parents and Social Security.
After that itll be who knows what.

Whatever poker money guys make, save it batches. The shit doesnt grow on trees, and the only thing ur gonna have left after those hoookers is the aftertaste of antibiotics.

this just goes to teach all of you, be rich. failing that be a golddigger its ok if you're a guy trust me

eliminate social security, lower medicare, live capitalistically. reap your own goddamn rewards...society doesnt owe you anything.

laissez faire 4 life! (i probably misspelled that).

seriously though, i hate the idea of the wealthy having to pay for the services of the poor. if you want socialism, move to europe.

I have absolutely no problem eliminating social security, as long as I don't have to keep paying the tax and can invest my own earned money in any way that I choose.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journey075

eliminate social security, lower medicare, live capitalistically. reap your own goddamn rewards...society doesnt owe you anything.

laissez faire 4 life! (i probably misspelled that).

seriously though, i hate the idea of the wealthy having to pay for the services of the poor. if you want socialism, move to europe.

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i
uh
...
do u want to talk about politics somewhere.
...
hmmm
...
if u think this is a plea for socialism then ur way off base.

i mean
u DO understand the concept of social security right?
U DO realize what portiion of ur paycheck goes towards social security and what portion doesnt right?

lol, its one thing to be right winged, or all about capitalism, but at a certain point on either end of the spectrum the zealots start to look like retards. When the poor have no retirement to work for, you think they are gonna really wanna work to 65, then just rot away? Lol, you just dont get it. This is when people get born depressed and desperate. This is when rich people start being kidnapped. When the distribution of wealth becomes that bad, everything is corrupt. Because if you think having the top being corrupt is bad, just wait til the middle class, the pool which police are born in mostly has no reason to have a positive outlook on life. Then whos gonna police the masses? You are going ot have millions of poor desperate people. Look at the french revolution, have fun being put to the guilitine retard.

Ill let you guys in on a secret, journey is rich..and he didn't make that money himself, if ya know what I mean..
http://www.jewelryshopping.com/~comp67263/57482942.jpg

after reading this thread - it reminds me of this statement,

" a society can be judged by how it treats its weakest members"

very nice quote gareth, any idea of its orgins?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ake

Ill let you guys in on a secret, journey is rich..and he didn't make that money himself, if ya know what I mean..
http://www.jewelryshopping.com/~comp67263/57482942.jpg

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hey cool, i have one just like that. what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Reform HMOs and managed care and you'll do a hell of a lot more good than just pumping money into the system. The United States is the only industrialized country without a universal health plan, yet we spend a significantly higher percentage of our GDP on health care than the countries that do. Managed care is a thorn in the side of our healthcare system, and most people don't even realize it. It's not a matter of redistribution of money among the populace, because the money is already there. It's a matter of redistribution of money among people involved in the healthcare process.

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I was too lazy to re-write it so I just stole it from the other thread. I could write pages, but I have a test in a few hours which I need to do well on so I can deal with this mess on a daily basis. I don't know the exact figures, but almost 200 million Americans are covered by some kind of managed care plan and the vast majority of them don't even understand what it is, how it works, and how it's different from traditional health insurance. It's kinda hard to fix a problem when you aren't even aware what it is...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Reform HMOs and managed care and you'll do a hell of a lot more good than just pumping money into the system. The United States is the only industrialized country without a universal health plan, yet we spend a significantly higher percentage of our GDP on health care than the countries that do. Managed care is a thorn in the side of our healthcare system, and most people don't even realize it. It's not a matter of redistribution of money among the populace, because the money is already there. It's a matter of redistribution of money among people involved in the healthcare process.

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I was too lazy to re-write it so I just stole it from the other thread. I could write pages, but I have a test in a few hours which I need to do well on so I can deal with this mess on a daily basis. I don't know the exact figures, but almost 200 million Americans are covered by some kind of managed care plan and the vast majority of them don't even understand what it is, how it works, and how it's different from traditional health insurance. It's kinda hard to fix a problem when you aren't even aware what it is...

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I mean im not going to argue with the fact that its going ot be hard to fix. But we can agree that it needs to be fixed.

I really liked that original thing u had in the other thread. I thought it was good summary of wat was wrong with the situation.

I hate helping worthless people. You should have to work 40 hours a week manditory to get govt aid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoGGz

I hate helping worthless people. You should have to work 40 hours a week manditory to get govt aid.

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so wat ur saying is that people who havnt done anything to deserve money shouldnt get any right?

the people who need government aid the most cant work, thats the whole point, dont you get it? It doesnt mean these people have never worked, but soem cant. Some would like to work, but they just cant.

boostNslide - not sure what the original words were so can't find the origin of this but it is on the same thought as these:-

1) " The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated " - Ghandi

2) " The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. " - Fyodor Dostoevsky

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gareth

2) " The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. " - Fyodor Dostoevsky

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California Sterilizes needles used in lethal injections.
Therefore
California is a sterile state.

gareth, I really like your line of thought.

Another fucked up system in our society is the 'correctional' system.

I'm tempted to say John Rawls on the quote, but I don't think that's right. He's good shit though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boostNslide

MOST OF the people who WANT government aid the most DON'T WANT TO work, thats the whole point, dont you get it? It doesnt mean these people have never worked, but soem cant. Some would like to work, but they just cant.

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FYP

here's my 2 cents.

My mantra is this; it's posted in the 3 places most significant to me.
“The cornerstone aim of my life is to have it lived to the fullest extent… by capturing the magical magnificence the world has to offer: it’s variety, vitality, and excitement. To achieve this, I vow to love myself and those close to me, appreciate every day I’m presented, experience the fine things in life, nurture my talents, work towards goals, develop and look after my body, let the spirit roam, manage money wisely, and most importantly, to feel and be absolutely free.”

You can probably see i'm libertarian/laissez faire. I don't owe society anything. Sure I'm lucky to have the parents I have, the IQ I have, etc... but I don't owe anything to the guy who has 7-2 all in while I got AA. That said, what vqc says IS important! Here's why:

don't even THINK that you can just work 'til you're 65 and the government will take care of you. It won't happen. Start planning for your future NOW. I already have it all planned out, when i'm going to 'retire', how much i'm going to 'retire' with, and what i'm going to do when i get there (for me, retirement is simply financial freedom and i would continue to do the things i love) and I'm only 20. Buy health insurance. It's good in Australia, can't comment about USA.

If you want to care for your parents/grandparents, then good! I like your thinking! Start accumulating your poker winnings and spend your money judiciously, and invest wisely.

I don't owe nobody nothing. But I still want to help people out of the kindness of my heart not because I owe them. And while I'm starting small, I plan to scale up from my humble plans.

Yes, the system is fucked. Don't rely on it. Rely on yourself. Nobody owes you anything if you can't be self sufficient.

Quote:

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Gareth wrote:


2) " The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. " - Fyodor Dostoevsky

California Sterilizes needles used in lethal injections.
Therefore
California is a sterile state.

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on more levels than one?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lowBoy

I'm tempted to say John Rawls on the quote, but I don't think that's right. He's good shit though.

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hell ya hes good shit.
even if u dotn agree with a single thing he says, if u want to be any sort of comteporary political philosopher u have to read his book, and u have to contend with everything he says. Easily the most comprehensive system of forming a fair structure of society.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gareth

Quote:

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Gareth wrote:


2) " The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons. " - Fyodor Dostoevsky

California Sterilizes needles used in lethal injections.
Therefore
California is a sterile state.

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on more levels than one?

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thats the only way itd be funny =D.

:lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boostNslide

the people who need government aid the most cant work, thats the whole point, dont you get it? It doesnt mean these people have never worked, but soem cant. Some would like to work, but they just cant.

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I call BS here. There are very few people who I'd classify under "CANT WORK" and it is no where near as high as "don't want to work".

For example: A girl that used to work part time for us was happy she was preg again, because that ment more govt money every year. She didn't even work full time. I've been hoping she dies ever since.

What people do you classify under "Can't work?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by salsa4ever

Yes, the system is fucked. Don't rely on it. Rely on yourself. Nobody owes you anything if you can't be self sufficient.

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I was gonna respond to this post...but I can't say it any better myself. NH Sir.

Edit: Ok i'll make one point on all government welfare programs. The biggest problem there is with welfare is that 80% of the people that receive it don't need it and leach money out of the system that could go to the 20% that actually need it because they couldn't survive without it at no fault of their own. Here is my example from my own state:

Bad Welfare Program: Food Stamps...in PA people on this program get "Access Cards" that can be used at any store for anything. Access cards are basically not much more than a debit card. I worked at a convenience store and would have to ring up $50 worth of junk food on an access card for some hick that was also buying $100 worth of instant lotto tickets a day or some guy driving an Escalade with $2k Rims who obviously sells drugs and does not need food stamps.

Good Welfare Program: WIC (Women w/ Infant Children) - The recipient is given a certificate good for items necessary for the mother's and the child's well-being. Example: x gallons of milk, x loaves of bread, x cans of baby formula...etc. There is virtually no way to take advantage of this one because it provides exactly the basics...and nothing more.

The point here is that if the government didn't lose so much money on the first program they could put more into the programs that work like the 2nd program. This same thing is relevant for SS and Medicare. Find the leaks in the system, stop pissing money their way, and there will be plenty left over for the people who really need it. Just my .02

Isn't there a rawlsian theory of maximal utility?

Welfare = min{Ui(x)}

which basically states that society's welfare is baded on the lease well off?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoGGz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boostNslide

the people who need government aid the most cant work, thats the whole point, dont you get it? It doesnt mean these people have never worked, but soem cant. Some would like to work, but they just cant.

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I call BS here. There are very few people who I'd classify under "CANT WORK" and it is no where near as high as "don't want to work".

For example: A girl that used to work part time for us was happy she was preg again, because that ment more govt money every year. She didn't even work full time. I've been hoping she dies ever since.

What people do you classify under "Can't work?"

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Doggz is right, it's the same over here. Our welfare system is way too kind to lazy people. Trust me, I took advantage of it for almost two years :lol:

I agree with many points in this thread. I think social security will be around in some fashion when I retire, but I'm not counting on it. I continue to save substantial amounts for retirement. I think it can be too easy to depend on others and not take responsibilty for your life and your situation. Having so many citizens with minimal or no health care in a country as wealthy as we are is a disgrace. I don't know that answer, but yes it needs fixing.

That being said, it's disheartening to hear some of the stereotypical bullshit about poor people or people who are on welfare. I consider myself very lucky, and have been given many advantages with family, friends, education, never worrying where the next meal is coming from. I suspect most of you can say the same. I can't deny there are people who abuse social programs, and we've all seen examples of that. Yes, social programs could certainly be improved to weed out the abusers. But to throw out there that 80% of welfare recipients don't need it is crap. Probably more than 20% are children. Do we penalize them for being born into poverty? Many of these are senior citizens who CANNOT work. Do we just abandon them as well? Many of these are just everyday people who have had an illness or some other catastrophe and truly need the help. I think alot of people forget how truly blessed they are. The belief that all poor stay that way by choice or are unworthy of assistance is misguided. Where is the compassion, people? Just becuase you've never been there(needing help) doesn't mean it can't happen to you , through no fault of your own.

How selfish are we that we can be so rich and still begrudge having to spend any money at all on those less fortunate than us?

Sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigred

Isn't there a rawlsian theory of maximal utility?

Welfare = min{Ui(x)}

which basically states that society's welfare is baded on the lease well off?

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Its the difference principle
It was conceieved in order to distribute the effects of the social and natural lottery in as fair a way as possible.
The idea is that given an initial distirubtion, all inequalities that are introduced must be distributed in a manner that benefits the Worst off the most.

X
10 10 10
Y
12 15 26
Z
13 15 25

Z is prefered over Y

Since I work from home, often have time on my hands between projects, and actually enjoy writing, I write term papers for people who need help (and can pay ; )
Last month, I wrote a U.S. healthcare research paper for this guy, and I learned a lot about how fuked up the system is.


Anyone with a sense of the issue probably knows some of the important figures, and a few of them have been mentioned already, namely:

The U.S. spends more than anyone else on healthcare - more than 2x as much per person on health care than any other developed country;
1/3 of Americans are uninsured or underinsured;
U.S. ranks near the bottom among developed countries on key indicators like life expectancy and infant mortality;
in 2000, WHO ranked U.S. healthcare system #37 (!!) worlwide;
Employment trends (service industry/part-time, etc.) point toward even higher #'s of un/underinsured in near future;
Un/underinsured rely way too much on emergency room visits, which are on the order of 5x more expensive, and terribly inefficient;
U.S. healthcare costs are spiralling out of control - double-digit annual inflation and no relief in sight;
Lack of access to healthcare largely corresponds with income and ethnicity, and studies show that there is a vicious cycle of poor health and lower income;
Administrative costs - including invoicing, service approvals, marketing, broker's fees to insurance agents, etc. - are estimated to be as much as 30% of all healthcare costs in the U.S. (vs. 3%-5% in UK);
U.S. companies claim that they are disadvantaged in the global market because of health care costs (would like to research this more). At any rate, small and medium-size businesses are at disadvantage because they don't have the leverage;
Also, don't forget:
too many specialists, overuse of technology, preference for treatment over prevention, fraud, malpractice and all of the 'defensive medicine procedures' it necessitates, etc, etc, etc.

That's just the lowlights, abbreviated so as not to overtax your attention.
I won't even start in on why universal health care, or something approaching it, would be better.

I'll just say that I think that research and an open mind would lead most reasonable people to the conclusion that health should not be treated like any other commodity, and that the health care market does not behave like other markets. I think reasonable people would see that the advantages of fundamental reform are huge.

If absolutely nothing else, there's the 'pocketbook perspective' - it's just not too hard for people to see that more and more of their taxes and more of their wages (when the costs of health care are figured as part of overall compensation) are going to keep getting piped into a system that just doesn't work very well.

Yet, anytime somebody proposes fundamental reforms, the parties interested in the status quo (like the AMA, Insurance Groups, and Big Pharma - 3 vastly powerful lobbying machines) cry "Socialized Medicine!" They chant "USA! Free Market!" and dredge up all kinds of horror stories about Canadians waiting 9 months for an MRI, and other bullsh*t that scares everybody into thinking there's nothing to be done, except maybe tinker around the edges of the existing system. But that just makes things more complicated, more expensive, and as it feeds the beast that professionalized medicine and professional "care" has become in the U.S., more hopeless.

That's my .02

its not just our parents and grandparents we should be worried about, whom do we think WILL be stuck with all the debts American society is racking up? (social security, medicaid, medicare, budget deficit, trade deficit, a million pot smokers in jail while child molesters roam the streets) thats right our current and future kids and grandkids, a hole this deep isn't dug in a few years and won't be filled in a few years

senior citizens may stand the best chance for help because they will become an ever more powerful voting block as the baby boomers all attain senior citizenship, AARP is fast becoming the most influential lobby group on capitol hill

I wish I was smart enough to know the answers, but we should all be able to see the problems

______________________________
"Why do they use the alcohol swab prior to the lethal injection?" --- George Carlin
"In the long run we're all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes
"Everything's busted" --- Bob Dylan

if we all developed a old person fetish, we could 'take care' of the old people rrreal good...

MY FUCKING OGD ITS MY BIRTHDAY... ERR ITS SIX IN THE AM BNOW BUT IM STILL DRUNK SO ITSN STILL MYB IRTHDAY BITHCES! HAHAHAHA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boostNslide

if we all developed a old person fetish, we could 'take care' of the old people rrreal good...

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That'll just lead to necrophilia...

Best pick-up line ever: "If I found you dead, I wouldn't bury you right away."