Call this down?

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12-09-2005, 01:58 PM
WildBobAA

Call this down?

Full Tilt Poker Game #327940599: Table Hercules (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:49:47 ET - 2005/12/09
Seat 2: miodapoker ($35.70)
Seat 3: WildBobAA ($95)
Seat 4: IvanZypher ($104.90)
Seat 5: muddyrugger1 ($55.50)
Seat 6: Sirdonkofpuncho ($213.55)
miodapoker posts the small blind of $0.50
WildBobAA posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to WildBobAA [Kc Ks]
IvanZypher folds
muddyrugger1 folds
Sirdonkofpuncho folds
miodapoker calls $0.50
WildBobAA raises to $2.50
miodapoker calls $1.50
4thplace sits down
*** FLOP *** [Tc Qd Qs]
4thplace adds $40
miodapoker checks
WildBobAA checks
*** TURN *** [Tc Qd Qs] [5s]
miodapoker bets $5
WildBobAA calls $5
*** RIVER *** [Tc Qd Qs 5s] [5d]
miodapoker bets $15
WildBobAA ??
12-09-2005, 02:11 PM
Alibi

I'd reraise turn to $12 to see where you are. It prevents him from trying that shit on the river.
12-09-2005, 02:14 PM
Fnord

Ni Han, now just call the river bet.

Raising to $12 sucks, because the play here is raising to $15 and you have to trust your opponent doesn't 3-bet or stop'n'go a worse hand.
12-09-2005, 02:16 PM
UG

I'm not familiar with short-handed NL poker but I'll throw my thoughts out there anyway (and then I will move this to the short-handed section of FTR).

I may be wrong on this but you have to raise bigger here IMO. A lot of things will stay in to see a flop for $2.75, I think you need to protect your hand better than this. Maybe I'm wrong here (again, I don't play the 6-max game), but you're giving weaker hands the opportunity to draw out on you.

Next up, you didn't bet the flop. Why not? Do you think he has a queen? Well, there are two on the flop, that means there are two left in the entire deck. What are the chances he has one of the two queens left? Not good. You need to bet here like those queens helped you, like you're not afraid of them. If he calls then back off the gas a little bit. You have to represent that you have a queen OR that you still have something good anyway. He can only call if he has something...

Next, you call his $5 bet. Again, this is a raise or fold situation. That five dollar bet could mean anything. He could think his 88 is good. Or his ace high. Or his A-10. By just calling him you have gained absolutely no information about his hand (again).

Because you didn't raise the flop, and because you just called the turn, you still have no idea what his $15 bet means on the river. There's no telling what he has because you never made him define his hand.

Looking at the stack sizes a flop bet is a MUST. Shortstacks tend to only play their strongest hands because they fear going broke. He he calls/pushes on the flop you can be almost asured that he has you beat here...

{moved from Hold'em Hand Histories}
12-09-2005, 02:16 PM
Alibi

Wow I just realized my post sucks. First of al this is 6-max where I suck. Second of all you're probably ahead so it's ok just to call him down. If you reraise he extracts more with a Q.
12-09-2005, 02:25 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

I may be wrong on this but you have to raise bigger here IMO. A lot of things will stay in to see a flop for $2.75, I think you need to protect your hand better than this.

I think protecting a hand pre-flop is a silly concept. I generally open for $3 or $4, sometimes more depending on how the table is playing and what I want to accomplish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Next up, you didn't bet the flop. Why not? Do you think he has a queen? Well, there are two on the flop, that means there are two left in the entire deck.

Balance dictates that he must bet here a lot to cover for all the times he bets with air. However, I like the check a lot better if the board reads QQ5. DUCY?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Next, you call his $5 bet. Again, this is a raise or fold situation.

AJ, 77, etc. are all "raise or fold" in this spot. It's pefectly fine to call with KK here.
12-09-2005, 02:26 PM
WildBobAA

Problem with betting a flop like that is that there's really no value. He's going to fold a weaker hand and raise/smooth call a better hand. By checking I might induce a bluff on the turn. I've had it so many times where I check the flop like that, smooth call the turn, and they check the river with A high. I didn't have a read on this guy so I didn't know if he was a donk or not. After a few orbits I realized he was and probably should have called. But I really feel vs a better player, checking the flop is the right play and versus a donkey, betting is.

By the way I folded this and he showed 88 and I won my money back later on a KK6xx board when he had K9 vs my 66.
12-09-2005, 02:29 PM
UG

He's playing with a shortstack here. The way I see it, the shortstack is either going to go all the way with this hand...or go nowhere at all.

The whole game changes if this guy has a deep stack.
12-09-2005, 02:32 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

Problem with betting a flop like that is that there's really no value. He's going to fold a weaker hand and raise/smooth call a better hand.

The value comes from the fact that any hand I play looks about the same until my opponent plays back at me or calls my c-bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

By checking I might induce a bluff on the turn.

Great line of reasoning and it worked, but you MUST call that river bet with this line. It's not a difficult amount to call in this game. Consider that hands you beat played by anyone with much of a clue (granted this might be ~25% of the player base at this level) is going to sometimes stab here with a somewhat uncomfortable river bet in hopes of getting a fold. Folding the river was really terrible.
12-09-2005, 02:34 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

The whole game changes if this guy has a deep stack.

Good point. Yeah, I would just give the short-buy unlimited action in this spot. I tend to spash around against these guys because I get shown terrible hands so often and it makes for good advertising value.
12-09-2005, 02:35 PM
WildBobAA

Yeah I see this was an easy call now. Just was really confused, wish I had a read on him.
12-09-2005, 02:55 PM
UG

Well, if you were trying to induce a bluff, you got him to do so. You should have called him. With no reads against a shorty like this.....it's a tough call to make, though.

Shortstacks suck. I *hate* playing against them because of stuff like this. That's why I'm raising here because he will let you know if he really likes his hand or not. If not on the flop, at least on the turn.
12-09-2005, 03:01 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

That's why I'm raising here because he will let you know if he really likes his hand or not. If not on the flop, at least on the turn.

...and then you just call anyway because with that much action on a $30 stack you may as well take ~3:1ish to take it to the felt with 2 outs if you're behind.

I love short stacks because I can slash around against them like a donk and get shown lots of bizare hands.

GAMB00L! GAMB00L! GAMB00L! GAMB00L! GAMB00L!
12-09-2005, 08:43 PM
bdawg56kg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

I'm not familiar with short-handed NL poker but I'll throw my thoughts out there anyway (and then I will move this to the short-handed section of FTR).

I may be wrong on this but you have to raise bigger here IMO. A lot of things will stay in to see a flop for $2.75, I think you need to protect your hand better than this. Maybe I'm wrong here (again, I don't play the 6-max game), but you're giving weaker hands the opportunity to draw out on you.

Next up, you didn't bet the flop. Why not? Do you think he has a queen? Well, there are two on the flop, that means there are two left in the entire deck. What are the chances he has one of the two queens left? Not good. You need to bet here like those queens helped you, like you're not afraid of them. If he calls then back off the gas a little bit. You have to represent that you have a queen OR that you still have something good anyway. He can only call if he has something...

Next, you call his $5 bet. Again, this is a raise or fold situation. That five dollar bet could mean anything. He could think his 88 is good. Or his ace high. Or his A-10. By just calling him you have gained absolutely no information about his hand (again).

Because you didn't raise the flop, and because you just called the turn, you still have no idea what his $15 bet means on the river. There's no telling what he has because you never made him define his hand.

Hmmm. Going to have to disagree with you here George. I love the check/call line that WildBob took except for that fact that he didn't call the river. I think the flop check is semi-standard as well as the turn call given the texture of the board. It sucks if villian has A9 and hits an A, or has 88 and hits an 8, but as it is either WildBob is a huge favorite or huge dog, and slowplaying when you have your opponent drawing to 2-3 outs isn't a bad thing. Think about it. If WildBob called the river bet, he would have invested $20 postflop to get to a showdown, but if he bet the flop and/or raised the turn, he would have invested at least $20 to get to the same showdown. What's the difference right? Well by check/calling he can pick off a bluff from villian, but if he took the bet/raising line there's almost no chance his hand is good at showdown.