Two Hands from UG

Printable View

12-09-2005, 09:44 AM
UG

Two Hands from UG

I have two hands for review. One I think I played right, the other I think I played terribly, terribly wrong. It may be difficult for you to figure out which one is which (you might think both plays sucked). It may (or may not) seem like standard stuff, but I'm looking for feedback/criticism on these two hands. Both of these hands are NL100.

Hand #1 -- I have seen about fifteen hands at this table. The villian in this particular hand has been *very* active. Too active. He has a HUGE stack and is using that to his advantage. Of the five hands I've seen him play he has been pushing the action hard and fast. I'm assuming he's just pushing people off of their hands because they're scared of going broke. He has only shown down one hand, JQs, when he flopped a straight (he showed after his opponent folded on the turn). He raised to $4 with that JQs. So, me thinks if I get a hand I can double up off of this douche-bag.

Ultimate George ($109.50)
Villian ($478.50)

Cards dealt to Ultimate George -- T :club: T :diamond:

Ultimate George (UTG) calls $1, folds around, Villian (button) raises $4, SB folds, BB folds, Ultimate George calls $4. POT = $9.50

Flop -- 2 :club: 8 :club: 6 :diamond:

Ultimate George checks, Villian raises $6, Ultimate George raises to $15, Villian thinks...calls $15. POT = $39.50

Turn -- 4 :heart:

Ultimate George bets $30, Villian calls $30. Pot = $99.50

River -- J :diamond:

Ultimate George checks, Villian bets $60, Ultimate George thinks...and calls $60 (and is all-in). POT = $219.50

Hand #2 -- I have absolutely no read on this hand. I posted my blind in the CO and raised/c-bet my first pot and won it. Five hands later I am in the small blind. The table has just recently died so we are playing five-handed.

Ultimate George ($112.50)
Villian ($184.25)

Cards Dealt to Ultimate George: A :spade: J :spade:

Folds around, Villian (button) raises $2.50, Ultimate George (SB) calls $2.50, BB folds. Pot = $6

Flop -- A :club: 2 :diamond: 8 :spade:

Ultimate George checks, Villian bets $2.50, Ultimate George raises to $7.50, Villian calls $7.50. Pot = $21

Turn -- 9 :heart:

Ultimate George bets $15, Villian raises to $30, Ultimate George thinks....and calls $30. Pot = $81

Is this where I messed up? I check raised him on the flop and now he's raising my strong raise? Is this an instafold with no reads? I'm not much of a shorthanded NL player, so my guess is YES it is...Was this a dumb call?

River -- 3 :club:

Ultimate George checks, Villian raises $75, Ultimate George folds.

He could have been on AQ, AK, or hit some sort of weird two-pair here, is what me thinks.

Any thoughts on these two plays?
12-09-2005, 10:13 AM
r8ed

I would be surprised if you lost on hand 1. It seems like he has two overs that never hit and since you checked the river, he tried to buy it without committing himself. Also could be a value bet though when he hit his Jack. You can't fold here though.

Hand 2 he raised low preflop but that may mean nothing. You are right about the turn. He reraised when a 9 hits. I'm not sure 9 helped him but if he has AK/AQ, he may want to stop you from hitting something. He could have 89 too. Tough one here. As played I guess it's a good river fold.

Why are you checking the river on both hands? Hoping they fear another check-raise and let you show down cheap? I think if you lead out you can make better decisions on both hands and actually see if they fold.
12-09-2005, 10:25 AM
UG

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8ed

IWhy are you checking the river on both hands? Hoping they fear another check-raise and let you show down cheap? I think if you lead out you can make better decisions on both hands and actually see if they fold.

Hand #1 -- I checked the river to induce a bluff on this hand. If I bet any more money into this pot it tells the other guy, "you are beat, fold," and I don't get paid off. With my read I'm playing for stacks here and praying that the guy doesn't have Jx, QQ, KK, or AA.

Hand #2 -- I believe the call on the turn was a terrible one. A disaster. I check raised him on the flop and he still calls. I bet 3/4 the pot on the turn and he STILL RAISED ME. What is he trying to tell me here? He's telling me that he's not scared of the ace that's out there, that it helped his hand more than it helped mine. Or maybe he had 88, 99. Either way, I wasn't confident that AJ was good here but I still called anyway (that's why I'm asking here if it was ridiculous). Checking the river was my way of saying, "yo buddy, can we see this hand down cheaply? Are you THAT sure of your hand?" He puts me all-in on the river which *could* be a bluff...but I don't think it was, considering how the betting went.
12-09-2005, 01:08 PM
Fnord

Hand 2: I re-raise pre-flop to keep less money behind. I really really hate playing a pair out of position with lots of money behind.

Another option for pot-control is to just check/call the flop + turn and bet the river. You're not a fish playing $25NL anymore, it's ok to re-discover the call button. Really...
12-09-2005, 01:47 PM
Bmxicle

Hand 1: QJc, Kjc, AJc are likely the only hands i'm really scared of here, from what your saying an 8 might play the same way here. 88 and 66 are possible and alot of people will slowplay like that even with the flush draw, but i wouldn't be thinking about those too much. So yeah, for the most part i like this hand.

hand 2: With no read i fold AJ to a raise preflop, even if its weak. Flop raise and turn bets are fine (although facing a preflop raise, calls there are often a better option). But you absolutely can't continue with the hand when you get minraised on the turn. Your hand is weak, and this is the line that alot of people take with very strong hands like a set.
12-09-2005, 01:50 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

hand 2: With no read i fold AJ to a raise preflop, even if its weak.

Very opponent dependent. If you do this against me I'll just raise your blind with any 2 and might not even bother c-betting the flop because you just gave me insta-profit.
12-09-2005, 01:56 PM
EricE

I agree with UG on hand 2. Fold to the turn raise. He has shown extreme strength and I have to believe my split pair of As with AJ is no good. Two pair, set or he just decided he is going to push you off your hand. The latter is very unlikely with the river bet because I would think he would give up by then.
12-09-2005, 02:01 PM
UG

Hand #1:

Ultimate George shows T :club: T :diamond:
Villian shows A :club: K :heart:
Ultimate George wins $216.50 from the main pot.

I *really* liked this hand.

Hand #2:

BMX, I like your line of folding preflop. If I can't be the aggressor in the situation I don't want anything to do with this hand.

That said, the call wasn't a bad one. I liked my reraise on the flop and my turn bet, but I definitely should have folded to the turn min-reraise by our villian and saved $15.

Live and learn.
12-09-2005, 02:06 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

BMX, I like your line of folding preflop. If I can't be the aggressor in the situation I don't want anything to do with this hand.

Because jamming in a situation that's likely to result in a chip tossing contest is the best way to make *money*?

I don't like your line because you're repping an obvious scare card and a thinking opponent is going to test you here quite a bit.
12-09-2005, 02:10 PM
lolzzz_321

Don't really know which one I like more the hyphenation of douche bag (douche-bag) or hand 1.

Hand 1: Ugh, really sux here, I think he hit a set, the way i'd play it though. I was thinking AcJc, but you said he playing hands hard and fast. Looks like his hand is real strong with *just* those calls. Heza playin fo yo stack on the river. When he calls the turn though, warning bells r going off.

Hand 2:Call me aggro but ill reraise this preflop 5 handed. Like the flop bet, turnbet too, minraise on the turn=ur beat= fold.
12-09-2005, 02:12 PM
lolzzz_321

AK? Whata donkey. Nice play sir.
12-09-2005, 02:18 PM
r8ed

George, how many tables are you playing when you get these hands? Just wondering because you used to play many at lower limits, but it seems these hands require extra attention.
12-09-2005, 02:19 PM
UG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

BMX, I like your line of folding preflop. If I can't be the aggressor in the situation I don't want anything to do with this hand.

Because jamming in a situation that's likely to result in a chip tossing contest is the best way to make *money*?

I don't like your line because you're repping an obvious scare card and a thinking opponent is going to test you here quite a bit.

A thinking opponent? What is that? Do they exist on the site I play on?

Thing is, though, I've repped it twice. Once on the check-raise, then by taking the lead on the turn. And he still doesn't care...
12-09-2005, 02:22 PM
Fnord

It's a blind war, he who bets the most wins, duh! lol
12-09-2005, 02:24 PM
UG

I usually play two, sometimes three tables. Getting reads on three tables can be tough to do sometimes if I'm tired or not as into it as I should be...

With two tables up my reads are on point most of the time. I use this to my advantage by getting away from strong hands that are beat, betting hard when I know I'm ahead, or betting hard when I know I can push you off your hand.
12-09-2005, 02:25 PM
lolzzz_321

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's a blind war, he who bets the most wins, duh! lol

I think he is pwned on that hand, take ur blind wars to the LHE forum.

;)
12-09-2005, 02:28 PM
UG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's a blind war, he who bets the most wins, duh! lol

I hate blind wars. :)
12-09-2005, 02:35 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's a blind war, he who bets the most wins, duh! lol

I think he is pwned on that hand, take ur blind wars to the LHE forum.

Fair enough.

My thought process here is that George has a pretty good hand against an opponent he expects to play a wide range really fast. A lot of players *do* spew a lot in these spots. Hence, my goal here is to showdown the hand on the cheap. It's quite possible George's flop raise is a show a weakness as it could be read as "I don't think you have the Ace, I DARE you to raise/call." At a certain level a call is a stronger show of strength because you are only giving yourself one way to win.

I've won a couple pretty big pots in spots like this recently by inducing bluffs from otherwise passive opponents.

Finnally, a lot of the weaker opponents in this game tend to under-bet their good hands, but many will go bigger when trying to push you off something. They just can't stand to see you fold to their monster and consider the hand "wasted." So check/calling an opponent who isn't going to bet his best hands hard isn't a big mistake.
12-09-2005, 02:38 PM
lolzzz_321

Hand #2 is a different opponent.
12-09-2005, 02:41 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

Hand #2 is a different opponent.

Yes, but it's a spew situation. Without a read, it's reasonable to assume he'll get out of line a fair amount of the time.

I think he's beat here too. However, I disagree with the flop + turn lines as they're setting him up to lose the max, win the least and get put to difficult decisions with a lukewarm hand.
12-09-2005, 02:50 PM
lolzzz_321

When is he gonna give the hand up in Hand 2, u suggest he check call Harry Potters or 3/4 of him all the way down?

Or is opp gonna bet 1/2 the pot the whole way?

I like the raise and bet out here for info.

I'm gonna take a nap, but I'll look at the thread when I wake up.
12-09-2005, 02:57 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

Or is opp gonna bet 1/2 the pot the whole way?

Most likely. Under-betting is very common in this game. I expect better hands to miss a lot of value and worse hands to blast away more than they should. Backwards poker.

A river blocking bet is also an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

I like the raise and bet out here for info.

You're assuming the information is good. Even if he dumps on the turn, George isn't exactly getting away from this hand cheap via his aggro line.

I really hate raising to "see where I'm at." But we've been there before...
12-09-2005, 03:05 PM
UG

Quote:

I really hate raising to "see where I'm at." But we've been there before...

Would you mind going over this again, please? Or at least direct me to a thread where you explain why you don't like raising to find out where you're at in a hand?
12-09-2005, 03:16 PM
Fnord

Not sure I can point you to an exact thread, so I guess we're going there.

Overall, I don't like auto-raising the flop with lukewarm hands. People play bizare hands in strange ways. Also, you're settting yourself up for the real monsters to smooth call and re-pop you at will or take a river shot, so what information are you really gaining?

I probably just call more flops than a lot of posters and raise the turn with a wider range or take a peek at a turn bet size (for information.) This works great with marginal hands in the Stars game because I'm pretty sure I get the nits to laydown a better hand here and there with that line.
12-09-2005, 05:06 PM
bdawg56kg

For the first hand I really like your line. Initially I thought villian was on a flush draw with two overs, but based on your read he probably would have pushed the flop, so he either has a monster or nothing. The only hand I'd be worried about here is 88. Well played.

For the second hand I don't like your line. Why not just go with a check/call line? There are no draws out, so no need to worry about villian semibluffing. You have a good but not great hand, so why are you trying to jam the pot with a check raise? Without reads, I would look to showdown with AJs as cheaply as possible. No need to inflate the pot when all you have is TPGK.
12-09-2005, 05:17 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

For the first hand I really like your line. Initially I thought villian was on a flush draw with two overs, but based on your read he probably would have pushed the flop, so he either has a monster or nothing. The only hand I'd be worried about here is 88. Well played.

For the second hand I don't like your line. Why not just go with a check/call line? There are no draws out, so no need to worry about villian semibluffing. You have a good but not great hand, so why are you trying to jam the pot with a check raise? Without reads, I would look to showdown with AJs as cheaply as possible. No need to inflate the pot when all you have is TPGK.

My words exactly. My only thought to add is can u reraise AJ from the blinds and tell villain to sod off raising your blinds. If ou are aggressive post flop you push him off anything but a monster. AJ might be out of position but the preflop reraise takes away his aggression. Valid or rubbish?
btw what did villain show on hand2??!?!? if he has the set u detect it when he calls and plays the turn accordingly
12-09-2005, 10:07 PM
Zinnsoldaten

You gotta love milking! ;-o (Performance based on a read)

Game #1537070433: Hold'em NL ($2/$5) - 2005/12/09 - 17:33:44 (ET)
Seat 1 is the button.
Seat 1: No 1 ($210.27 in chips)
Seat 2: Hero ($864 in chips)
Seat 3: Villain ($758.57 in chips)
Seat 4: No 4 ($491.75 in chips)
Seat 5: No 5 ($27.25 in chips)
Seat 6: No 6 ($301.71 in chips)
Hero: posts small blind $2
Aggro villain: posts big blind $5
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Hero [Qc Jh]
folds
folds
folds
folds
Hero: calls $3
Aggro villain: raises to $10
Hero: calls $5
----- FLOP ----- [Qd Ac 6s]
Hero: checks
Aggro villain: bets $20
Hero: calls $20
----- TURN ----- [Qd Ac 6s][Ad]
Hero: checks
Aggro villain: bets $45
Hero: calls $45
----- RIVER ----- [Qd Ac 6s Ad][Kd]
Hero: checks
Aggro villain: checks
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Hero: shows [Qc Jh] (Two Pairs, Aces and Queens, King high)
Aggro villain: shows [Kc 4h] (Two Pairs, Aces and Kings, Queen high)
Aggro villain collected $147 from Main pot
12-10-2005, 11:52 AM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten

You gotta love milking! ;-o (Performance based on a read)

Game #1537070433: Hold'em NL ($2/$5) - 2005/12/09 - 17:33:44 (ET)
Seat 1 is the button.
Seat 1: No 1 ($210.27 in chips)
Seat 2: Hero ($864 in chips)
Seat 3: Villain ($758.57 in chips)
Seat 4: No 4 ($491.75 in chips)
Seat 5: No 5 ($27.25 in chips)
Seat 6: No 6 ($301.71 in chips)
Hero: posts small blind $2
Aggro villain: posts big blind $5
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Hero [Qc Jh]
folds
folds
folds
folds
Hero: calls $3
Aggro villain: raises to $10
Hero: calls $5
----- FLOP ----- [Qd Ac 6s]
Hero: checks
Aggro villain: bets $20
Hero: calls $20
----- TURN ----- [Qd Ac 6s][Ad]
Hero: checks
Aggro villain: bets $45
Hero: calls $45
----- RIVER ----- [Qd Ac 6s Ad][Kd]
Hero: checks
Aggro villain: checks
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Hero: shows [Qc Jh] (Two Pairs, Aces and Queens, King high)
Aggro villain: shows [Kc 4h] (Two Pairs, Aces and Kings, Queen high)
Aggro villain collected $147 from Main pot

not aggresive enough
i shove that turn
nice read
12-10-2005, 07:09 PM
Zinnsoldaten

If I show resistance, he'll stop paying me. Too bad he got a hand to show down >.<