1k and some questions

I just had my best day ever in ring 25NL and won $150 playing for 3-4 hours today. With that my bankroll just passes $1000 wich I have been looking forward to for some time now! Thanks to this great site and all tips I have gotten from people there I feel I have learnt how to play holdem well quite fast. 45 days ago I started playing holdem for my first time. These 45 days I have played both MTTs and SnGs as well as ring games, but to build my bankroll for now I'd like to focus on ring and maybe a cheap buyin MTT now and then. I started with 25NL and I have never moved up a level before. I know I am on a real nice upswing right now, so I don't plan to move up in limits just yet, but still I'd be interessed in hearing from others:
-How long did you play before you moved up to 50NL, and how much time after that to 100NL?
-What was your bankroll at the time? Yeah I've read lots of treads about BR managment but it's nice to hear what people actually have done.
-Did you notice much difference when you moved up and did it take much time to adjust to the new level?

I hope some people could take time to tell how they experienced these steps, it helps me make realistic goals that I can reach.

I'll lead out with the fact that I'm not a great player. I started with a 100$ buy in on 9-1-2005. My bankroll is now at $990. I'm good, but not great.
I started on the 25$NL empire poker tables but couldn't get over the fact that people would draw out too often on me. $25 just wasn't enough to push people off a pot when they have 1 over card.
I moved to $50NL after about 2 weeks, and like it much more. I didn't have the bankroll to be playing it that early, but it worked out for me.
Now, with about $1k, I'm *considering* moving to $100NL. I've dabbled a couple times but for some reason, losing $50 in a sitting doesn't bother me, where losing $100 sets off a red flag.
I have decided that when I do move to $100NL, I must keep in mind that it's all RATIOS. All else being equal (quality of my play vs. my opponents), everything is doubled:
-The blinds
-The raise amounts preflop
-The raise amounts post-flop
-The swing variance
-Most importantly, the Profit.

Yes, I will having losing sessions of twice the amount I have now...but my profit should double once I have acclimated.

-c

I started playing poker in March with the free 75$ from PSO and turned it into 7500$, playing only NL ring games.. so I think that I might help you.

I'll give you my progress by month and at which stakes I was playing

March: 500$ NL25
April: 975$ NL25
May: 350$ NL25 (I had a very bad streak)
June: 925$ NL50
July: 500$ NL50 (didn't play much)
August: 1300$ NL100
September: 2000$ NL100
October: 1100$ NL100 and some NL200 (not playing much)

As you can see, I was taking my time before moving up.

From my experience, NL25 is not different from NL100. If you have let's say a 4BB/100 winrate at NL25, you should be able to maintain the same BB/100 at NL100 without adjusting your play. You'll have plenty of players calling with mediocre hands or draws. You can play ABC poker and win easily. This statement does not hold between NL100 and NL200 (but you're not there yet :-) The level between NL25 and NL100 is exactly the same, but it may seem different to you if you start playing scared.

Moving up is a good thing as long as you keep playing your game, even if you have more money at the table. Do you mind losing 50$ or 100$ in just 1 hand?? If yes, stick to NL25. I wouldnt mind losing 200$ on a hand, but I would be pissed to lose 1000$ (so that's why I'm not playing NL1000!)

One advice that I'd give you if you think you might be ready for NL50, is to play 1 table of NL50 and 2-3 tables of NL25 at first (I assume that you're already multitabling... otherwise ignore this). Each time I move up, I do it gradually and it has worked very well for me.

Finally, if I had to start over again knowing what I know now, I'd move up a little bit faster because I know that NL100 is not a different game and this is much more profitable for me.

I hope it helps!

Thanks for replying, and it is good to hear the difference when moving up is not too big. I wouldn't mind loosing $50 on a hand now, so maybe it's time for me to move up then, at least in a week or so. And starting with 1 new table at a time sounds like a good idea. Will post how it goes once I do it:)

When I moved from 10NL to 25NL I had to do so in a bit by bit manner. I started off playing a $10 at 25NL and gradually moving up every day to the full $25 (might have cost me some money in potential wins, but its worth it so that you can get used to the new level) but still played 10NL sometimes, and eventually I just got used to 25NL and moved for good. Now I'm doing the same thing for 50NL

I guess only you can answer whether or not you should move up. You have a big enough bankroll for $50NL, so if you don't think you'll play scared, then go for it. Just make sure you give yourself a way out. You must be sure that you will be able to suck in your pride and drop back down to 25NL if you lose a significant amount of your bankroll. Set a number and if you dip below it, move back down. After all, it's not a race. You've got plenty of time to move up. But you might as well give it a shot if you think you can handle it.

Personally, I was kinda silly and started playing $200NL with a $1300 bankroll. I usually play that limit in live games, so it wasn't that big of a deal. It worked out for me, but I took the risk of going bust in order to increase my roll quickly. Thankfully I started hot rather than cold. It's not something I'd recommend, especially to someone that just started playing holdem a little over a month ago.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by missmisery

I started playing poker in March with the free 75$ from PSO and turned it into 7500$, playing only NL ring games.. so I think that I might help you.

I'll give you my progress by month and at which stakes I was playing

March: 500$ NL25
April: 975$ NL25
May: 350$ NL25 (I had a very bad streak)
June: 925$ NL50
July: 500$ NL50 (didn't play much)
August: 1300$ NL100
September: 2000$ NL100
October: 1100$ NL100 and some NL200 (not playing much)

As you can see, I was taking my time before moving up.

From my experience, NL25 is not different from NL100. If you have let's say a 4BB/100 winrate at NL25, you should be able to maintain the same BB/100 at NL100 without adjusting your play. You'll have plenty of players calling with mediocre hands or draws. You can play ABC poker and win easily. This statement does not hold between NL100 and NL200 (but you're not there yet :-) The level between NL25 and NL100 is exactly the same, but it may seem different to you if you start playing scared.

Moving up is a good thing as long as you keep playing your game, even if you have more money at the table. Do you mind losing 50$ or 100$ in just 1 hand?? If yes, stick to NL25. I wouldnt mind losing 200$ on a hand, but I would be pissed to lose 1000$ (so that's why I'm not playing NL1000!)

One advice that I'd give you if you think you might be ready for NL50, is to play 1 table of NL50 and 2-3 tables of NL25 at first (I assume that you're already multitabling... otherwise ignore this). Each time I move up, I do it gradually and it has worked very well for me.

Finally, if I had to start over again knowing what I know now, I'd move up a little bit faster because I know that NL100 is not a different game and this is much more profitable for me.

I hope it helps!

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I don't doubt your progress or your ability, but I find it hard to believe that the levels from 25NL to 100NL are the same. You are probably an exceptional player that can adapt well. I haven't played over 25NL myself, but I have heard other make comments that 50NL is many rocks. I just don't want an FTR member who had three good sessions at 25NL thinking they are ready for 100NL and getting smoked. I would think postflop decisions are much more delicate as you move up.

If I'm off base here, then I'm ready to move up. I'm over 10BB/100 at 25NL. I'd like those BB's to be more profitable.

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Originally Posted by Iwind

-How long did you play before you moved up to 50NL, and how much time after that to 100NL?

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One week. but it was 'cause i got lucky and made >$500 on one hand.

Let's see, what did I do then? Oh, I remember: I played $100 NL with my $600 BR and lost >$500 on, I dunno, fifty hands.

Then it was SNGs only for a couple months. Then the Gauntlet (squish). Then I got creamed, I forgot how. 50NL ring, I think.

Then it was LHE for a few months, .25/.50 up to 3/6. Then a mixture of LHE and NL. Bad couple months. Now it's all NL again, 50 or 100.

Try not to think too much about when you are "allowed" to move up in stakes. Get lots of experience playing the various kinds of games and pick your favorte. Solidify your strategy. If you multitable, add a 50 (or two) to the mix and see if your emotions get in the way at that table. If not, you're ready.[/url]

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Originally Posted by r8ed

I don't doubt your progress or your ability, but I find it hard to believe that the levels from 25NL to 100NL are the same. You are probably an exceptional player that can adapt well. I haven't played over 25NL myself, but I have heard other make comments that 50NL is many rocks. I just don't want an FTR member who had three good sessions at 25NL thinking they are ready for 100NL and getting smoked. I would think postflop decisions are much more delicate as you move up.

If I'm off base here, then I'm ready to move up. I'm over 10BB/100 at 25NL. I'd like those BB's to be more profitable.

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I understand your concern. What I said is that from MY experience I haven't seen a difference between NL25 and NL100. Maybe that at your table, you'll have 1-2 skilled players. But NL100 is still pretty fishy. You'll see the typical plays that you see at NL25 (calling pot-size bets with KJ with a K on the board, calling draws with terrible odds, etc...). It might also depends on site you play on. I'd be curious to see if other FTR members agree.

I did see a difference between NL100 and NL200 however. Players seem to have a clue of what's going on and play a tight agressive style too. You cannot sit down and wait for them to pay you off.

I am not by any mean a special poker player. I play a pretty basic game. I avoid loosing big pots with hands like AQ, KQ, AJ, etc.. When I face a raise on the flop, I almost always fold or reraise (unless I want to slowplay). If I don't like my hand enought to raise, I'll lay it down instead of calling and hoping that my hand is good enough to win at showdown.

IMO, if you earn 10BB at NL25, there's NO WAY that you would earn less money / hour at NL100.. Maybe you won't sustain 10BB (if you mean BigBet) at NL100 (mine is around 7-8), but 5BB is maybe more realistic. However, I do not recommend making the jump right now. I did it very slowly and I'd recommend that you do the same.. While you play a lot of hands at NL50, you'll improve your game and you'll be ready for Nl100.

At first, I was thinking exactly like you.. I was afraid of NL50 and I thought that NL100 players were probably some kind of poker gods.

Edit: The amount of hands you've played should also tell whether you're ready or not for moving up.. If you have 10BB/100 over 1000hands, then stick to NL25.. But if you have played 20k hands, I'd recommend trying to move up.

I only have 10k hands but that's since 9/1 when I started playing for real and using poker tracker. My bankroll is around $500 or so. I'm probably going to wait until I'm closer to $750 to move up.

I would be interested in hearing what the other members think as far as differences. I play a simple game too. I just do it on several tables to make money. The problem is I really only have 10 hours to play a week. So, if I can move up limits that would help bring in some more cash.

I did what some people suggested and moved up to 50NL, I went from 25NL at Absolute Poker, where it is REALLY fishy, to 50NL at Fulltilt, and from what I've seen so far it sees to be quite a bit harder, but that might be because I'm not used to it yet.

I have had two 3 hour sessions now playing 2-3 NL50 tables, during the first I played pretty bad and lost $40, and I thought it was real hard and a big difference.

Today I played a much better game, and noticed that people here also do the same mistakes as at 25NL, like those you mentioned, missmisery. This session I won $75 even after loosing a huge pot on a bad beat, so it's going quite well so far.

I'm thinking you might have different views on what the game is like cause of playing different sites, I bet 50NL at Absolute is easier than at FullTilt, but I play FullTilt now as I got bonus to clear there. And anyways, as long as I grow my roll and don't loose cash I don't mind if it's slow, playing better players just make me a better player and that's what I care mostly about at the moment.

I find that at 50, there's less breathing space and there are fewer people making flat-out wrong calls, calling when they should be raising etc. Also, you don't get to see a flop very often unless you're prepared to raise or call a raise pre-flop. All round there are far fewer free gifts which, at 25, you tend to take for granted (and even contribute to).

I hope I'm not the only player who has cringed reading some of these "shortrun" and "shortminded" posts. I don't mean to say that in a negative, condescneding way, but only as definitive.

Rule #1 (based on soupie's lessons)
Exercise bankroll management.

EXERCISE BANKROLL MANAGEMENT.

You do not risk more than 10% in ring or SNG, or 5% in MTT on a daily basis.

Iwind. With 1k, you can be playing 4 25nl tables at most or 2 50nl tables at most. Anything more than that and you are putting yourself in danger in the longrun. Sure in the shortrun you may have a great day at 50 or 100nl but variance (esp in NL) will catch up and catch up quickly. There aren't any exceptions and if you want to endure over the longrun as a player you won't practice anything else like prematurely move up in stakes like other players here have. You'll notice that most of them have either played for a very short time or have even come out and said "I'm not a very good player."

However, the previous paragraph was more directed for the other players who have advised that its not so bad, etc. Moving up in stakes is simply a level of comfortability that depends upon your preference. The one thing I would like to refute is looking at each stake as matter of $100 loss in a hand or $50 loss in a hand. I don't think you should be placing monetarial views on moving up in stakes. Its simply a matter of how many buyins can i lose before I violate BR management and how many buyins I can risk at one time. The ability to disassociate yourself from money values and focus on BR and buyin values will make you a better player and probably less effected by losing hands. Let's face it, losing $25 and losing $1000 should have the same effect on a player from 25nl and 1000nl. You lost a buyin. Any different reaction and you're not comfortable where you're playing and you're either viewing the loss from a different perspective (and I would argue incorrect perspective) or you're not managing your bankroll properly.

Ignore the quick money players who play multiple 100nl tables with a 1k BR because "it's not much harder than 25nl." I guarantee you that if nothing in their play or BR management changes, they will not be posting here 6 months from now. It's a statistical fact that variance will kick in and there will be huge downswings. A 100nl player with a 1k BR will be gone faster than the time it took to read my post.

The bottom line is that you sound like a solid player with a solid foundation who is starting to prepare himself for the "what's next" step. Stick to what has done you well so far, stay within your means, and you'll be here a year from now.

Quote:

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EXERCISE BANKROLL MANAGEMENT.

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i dont care how good you are
you need this
quoted for truth

Thanks bigred. I was waiting for this point of view. I plan to move up when my bankroll permits based on the guides 'rilla and others have layed out. Some of the posts got me thinking but I wanted more perspective from other members. Of course I would like to make more money hourly, but I had a rough week last week and lost about 6 buyins - bad cards, flops and decisions. But that did not make me play scared because I knew I still had many more buyins. I actually took two days off and refocused on playing better. I made almost all that back this week.

I busted tiny bankrolls several times this year and this last deposit I made two months ago is my last. I can't justify putting money into a losing situation any more. I changed the way I play and how I use my bankroll. This new perspective is helping my game and approach.

I lost my stack 2 hands before I was going to log off last night when somebody hit in an inside str8 on the river after calling full pot bets and only getting the draw on the turn. I just typed "that's funny" and logged off and went to bed. My emotions were the same as if I had won because I was thinking about how great it is that people make those plays. The $30 lost didn't affect me much except I made less profit for the night. This is the comfort zone I like having.

PS: I'm not implying anything bad about the other posters. Some people do well at all levels - ilikeaces comes to mind - and don't notice much of a difference. But I think he even stayed within the bankroll guidelines here. That's why I figured the posters were exceptional. But then several people said the same thing until bigred came in.

I like Bigred's post, but a note on multitabling: It doesn't matter how many tables you play, since you're just playing hands faster, e.g. a 1hr 4-tabling session is pretty much the same as a 4hr 1-tabling session (only a lot less boring ;)).

I'm 4-tabling 50NL with a 717$-roll now, I'll move back to 20NL if I hit 600. This works for me because I know I won't mess around with this (even though it violates the >15 buy-ins rule).

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Originally Posted by johnny_fish

It doesn't matter how many tables you play, since you're just playing hands faster

I'm 4-tabling 50NL with a 717$-roll now, I'll move back to 20NL if I hit 600. This works for me because I know I won't mess around with this (even though it violates the >15 buy-ins rule).

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I completely disagree. More tables means bigger swings and less concentration, especially in NL (a little more stable with limit). As you increase tables you lose good reads (HUD's don't count as reads) and you're forced to make decisions faster. You should allocate BR management based on these details and incorporate a deeper BR for stability.

Playing multitable 50NL with $717 is an equation for disaster. Wait til you receive two bad beats within minutes of each other (-$100), tilt, forget about you're $600 rule, and lose another $150. It will happen. Being a good poker player means good strategy on and off the table. The #1 characteristic of a good poker player is BR manegement. Anything else is gambling.

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Wait til you receive two bad beats within minutes of each other (-$100), tilt, forget about you're $600 rule, and lose another $150.

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The first thing will probably happen, the last 3 certainly not. But I agree that BR management is very important. It's just that I think my EV/hand at 50NL is higher than at 20NL, so I'll take the (high) chance that I need to drop back.

I do feel that bankroll managment is important, and I have also started to treat loosing $50 now like loosing a buyin. I've seen now that 50NL is not that much harder, but I have also seen that the variance is much bigger, wich is obvious. Today I won a $190 pot there, wich is great of course, but to loose it would have been real bad, just an example of big variance, cause you do happen to have bigger stacks than $50 pretty often. (Unless you are loosing all the time of course, but then you shouldn't play there:))

I got my BR up to 1200 now and I play 3 50NL tables. 3 is what I am used to, and I do not think making changes to that is a good idea, I agress that I should wait with adding another till my BR is bigger and I am more comfortable with 50NL. If I lost more than 10% of my BR I would certainly take a break and think trough what went wrong. And even if it was just bad beats I think this is smart so you don't play when on tilt, bad beats might effect you more than you think, at least that's my experience.

Just posting again, if someone find it interesting to see how the move up can be like. I've now played 5 days at 50NL, and got my BR up to $1500. I might be on an upswing, but I have had several bad beats so I don't think it's just that. I've been playing both FullTilt 50NL and Absolute Poker 50NL, and at both places there are pretty bad players, with Absolute having more bad players than Fulltilt.

I think the biggest problem in the beginning, at least it was for me, is to raise twice as much as you were used to preflop and putting a $50 stack into the pot when being used to only playing with half that much. My goal is to reach $2k in a few weeks and then try out 100NL.

Update?

lol. Maybe they don't have teh internets on their yachts :(

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Update?

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You, sir, win the bump troll award. All internets are now yours to command.