Completing the small blind

I have seen a lot of posts/replies lately that are saying not to complete the SB with any two. And, as is the case with everything in poker, this is situational dependant. If it is folded to you, then perhaps you cant complete with any two, unless of course you have a good read on the BB and can outplay him/her postflop, in which case maybe raise it to get more into the pot. But, if I see 3-4 others limp before me, there is no way I am going to fold my 83 offsuit from the SB. The pot odds are just too good. Now, this obviously must be accompanied by the ability to lay down TP 3 kicker to too much strength, but if you have a good feel for your opponents, especially the BB, and have the discipline to lay down when it looks like the flop has 'made' your hand, then it can be quite profitable to complete with any 2. This is of course for lower level blinds in SnG's, not when they are 300-600 or higher. I cant really speak to whether this would be profitable in ring, as I dont usually play the cash games, but in theory it should work there as well.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

If I am completely wrong here, let me know.

Check this out:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...d22bf9d9dc1b64

Bear in mind you will be out of position postflop. OK, if the pot is multway you have good odds. Suited connectors/gappers are OK maybe, but definitly NOT any two cards. Having said that, in a sit n go your chips are so valuable, do you want to gamble some of them on a speculative hand?

Actually, that post was the one that got me thinking about my SB habits, and how I am okay with them, for the most part. But, I would not check an 8 high flop with an 83. I would bet for info, and to most likely take it down. The only things I am worried about here are 99-JJ, lower PP that hit, and the BB. I would love someone to call me down with overs. Keep in mind that I usually play at the 5.50's, so it may be different at different levels.

In any game, at any level of holdem, if you are completing the small blind with 83 offsuit, you are pissing your chips away.

Just my opinion :)

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Mac

In any game, at any level of holdem, if you are completing the small blind with 83 offsuit, you are pissing your chips away.

Just my opinion :)

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agreed 8 3 is stretching it, i wouldnt even call with 8 3 s00ted because i would be scared to hit the flush and lose to higher won which happens to me a lot

I'll generally always complete my SB w/any 2 for an extra 5 chips in the first round of a PP SNG. After that, or in ring games, I need at least something with potential.

Again, please bear in mind that I am not advocating always completing with 83. But, at the lower blind levels, with all of the crazies still in, and 3 or 4 people already limping, how can you argue that the extra 15-25 chips it takes to call isnt worth it? If there are 4 limpers at 15/30 blinds, that means there is 165 in the pot before I complete my SB. 15 to win 180 = great odds. Sure I only have an 83, but if I hit even 2 pair, I will most likely take the pot. Even better, flop comes 33A, and I take lots. This doesnt happen very often, but it doesnt have to to make this a profitable play in the long run. I doubt that I am more than a 10:1 dog heading into this pot.

I can't stand the thought of folding my SB when it's folded around to me.. holding any 2. With limpers or any preflop raise I can easily lay down any hand that has no potential (83o). If it's folded around to you you are getting 3:1 to complete and, even though you are out of position the rest of the hand, it's better then folding. Folding there is like folding the SB in heads up..

your odds of winning with a hand like 83o are really really low. the actual numbers for winning with it by the river are higher, but practically you need to flop 2 pair or 3 of a kind. the odds of flopping a reasonable hand are nearly double with a suited connector. that's not to mention, you're horribly out of position.

it is good to lower your standards a little bit and call with slightly worse hands in the but let's not go overboard, play hands with potential.

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Originally Posted by pgil

this obviously must be accompanied by the ability to lay down TP 3 kicker to too much strength

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Geez ... how much is too much strength for this hand? Say you get a limp with 4 others -- 5BB pot.

e.g. Flop 852? You're going to bet this ... okay. Are you going to try to bet off the draw? 4-6BB?
every 8 in the world has you beat here. You're outkicking 82 (congrats on that) but he's hit two-pair. You're folding to any raise, and any flat calls should make you nervous as hell too. So whassup?

You're right that this shouldn't be a discussion of the virtues of 83o (there aren't any ... you do not under any circumstances VP any $ in the P with those cards*), so I'll generalize:

You need a trap hand in the SB. Being first-t0-act has a nice advantage when you do flop a monster. But trap hands are much more fun when someone else has raised PF. Crummy hands in the SB have 3 black marks:
-they're crummy
-you're first to act
-everything but the mortal nuts on the flop is vulnerable with so many opponents.

So tempting when the pot lays you ten to one. But if you've got a hand that doesn't flop Very Strong more than 1/10 the time, it's not even worth that.

*for kicks I ran some 83o numbers. Versus AJo, 44, 65s, and Kxs your equity is 12% -- last place, obviusly. If you're fortunate enough to catch the BB with 72o (e.g. instead of Kxs) , your equity skyrockets to ... wait for it ... 14.4%!

Yes, too much strength for this hand is usually a flat call. But, with a board full of rags, this doesnt usually happen. At least 1/2 the time, noone else has hit anything, and when you play the 5's at stars, most of the people will not call unless they have hit something. Some will call with overs, and almost all will call with draws. If you can put your opponent on a hand, ie a mid range ace, a flush or straight draw, then you can act accordingly. But, like I said in the original post, if the flop comes 8 high, the only one I am really worried about flat calling here is the BB. And finally, this isnt about the strength of my hand, its about how scary it is to see one of the blinds bet out on a ragged flop, and how often that will take down the pot. And then on those 1 in however many times you do hit 2 pair or trips, you can usually get a little (or a lot) more. Say I completed the SB 4 times, twice at the 10/20, and twice at the 15/30 levels. That cost me 50 extra chips to see 20 cards, at least. If I bet at one flop, thats probably an extra 90, so at most I am down 140 out of 1500. If I get one flop where noone hits, I am taking a pot of 100-150, so pretty well break even. If I get a miracle flop A33, then I am probably taking some weak aces stack. Again, its not about my cards. The main reason I started this post was the excerpt from an unpublished manuscript about the SB saying NEVER complete the SB with crap just because it's cheap. All I wanted to say was, if it's cheap and you're getting more than 10:1 on your money, this is one of those few times when any 2 will actually do. Provided of course you can lay it down. Sorry if I am rambling a bit, but people seem to be really hung up on how bad 83 offsuit is, perhaps I should have used a different shite hand as my example :)

Alright, at this point I'm just having fun playing with more numbers. I take your point, but I'm still going to insist on mine, viz.: even if your postflop play is Excellent, you need more than Any Two here.

more numbers -- like I said, for kicks:
chance the flop will be 8-high: 19% (chance for eight) X 23% (chance of both other cards being lower than 8 = 4.5%
chance of tripping: 1.35%
total: 5.85

so youwant 17:1 or better to call. The implied odds help, of course, but don't overcome the theoretical problem: if there are enough players to give you decent odds, you are rarely going to be able to buy the pot.

So there's probably going to be a turn; and there's only a 45% chance it'll be lower than 8. Unless you've stumbled upon a table full of people that love to limp and then fold on the flop, this eats about half of your 4.5% from above.

And don't forget the events in which the flop is 337 but someone's got a better 3 (no worse 3 will be in there ... it'll be the A3s and K3s). That's uncommon, of course, but we're already talking about unlikely events.

I will complete the SB with any two if 9 people are limping, and I know for certain the BB won't raise.

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Originally Posted by pgil

Yes, too much strength for this hand is usually a flat call. But, with a board full of rags, this doesnt usually happen. At least 1/2 the time, noone else has hit anything, and when you play the 5's at stars, most of the people will not call unless they have hit something. Some will call with overs, and almost all will call with draws. If you can put your opponent on a hand, ie a mid range ace, a flush or straight draw, then you can act accordingly. But, like I said in the original post, if the flop comes 8 high, the only one I am really worried about flat calling here is the BB. And finally, this isnt about the strength of my hand, its about how scary it is to see one of the blinds bet out on a ragged flop, and how often that will take down the pot. And then on those 1 in however many times you do hit 2 pair or trips, you can usually get a little (or a lot) more. Say I completed the SB 4 times, twice at the 10/20, and twice at the 15/30 levels. That cost me 50 extra chips to see 20 cards, at least. If I bet at one flop, thats probably an extra 90, so at most I am down 140 out of 1500. If I get one flop where noone hits, I am taking a pot of 100-150, so pretty well break even. If I get a miracle flop A33, then I am probably taking some weak aces stack. Again, its not about my cards. The main reason I started this post was the excerpt from an unpublished manuscript about the SB saying NEVER complete the SB with crap just because it's cheap. All I wanted to say was, if it's cheap and you're getting more than 10:1 on your money, this is one of those few times when any 2 will actually do. Provided of course you can lay it down. Sorry if I am rambling a bit, but people seem to be really hung up on how bad 83 offsuit is, perhaps I should have used a different shite hand as my example :)

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That's a bit different, though. If there is 1-2 limpers and the table has been passive, then I'll call with any two (and probably raise) with the intent of taking the pot down after the flop. With 3 + limpers plus the BB there is no reason to waste money on a hand with no potential whatsoever. I'd call with any suited cards or mid connectors, but there's no reason to piss your money away hoping to catch a miracle flop with 830. With suited cards or connectors you will flop a flush or straight draw 1 time in 10 and you're getting great odds on your money, along with the fantastic implied odds. But the chances of you flopping two pair is pretty horrendous, and you have little implied odds. Even if you flop bottom two pair you can easily get outdrawn. If you called hoping to steal the pot on the flop, then you should know It's difficult to take a pot away from the 4-5 other players still in the pot because somebody has to have hit something.

People are trying to tell me to play suited connectors and the like instead of 83 from the SB, and I finally realized why that sounded like such bad advice. It's been said that the suited connectors will at least let you flop a flush/straight draw, but do you really want to be putting yourself in the position of hoping to flop a draw from the SB? The great thing (possibly the only great thing) about 83 is that it is sooooo easy to let go. Suited connectors would probably end up costing me even more since I would end up chasing at least one of my draws. That is why I was playing the suited connectors after all.

I like your calculations lefou, but you made one faulty assumption. The flop doesnt necessarily HAVE to contain an 8. It just has to be 8 high, or lower. A 7 high flop would work too. This change should increase the odds of the desired flop coming. Just thought I would put that in. :)

If you're calling your draws with correct odds, then its impossible for you to piss away the money ;)

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

the next time you are on the big blind and someone just 'calls' from the small blind...pump in a 3X reraise and watch how fast he folds....Id say that move is 80-90% successful

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Originally Posted by pgil

The great thing (possibly the only great thing) about 83 is that it is sooooo easy to let go. Suited connectors would probably end up costing me even more

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Good argument for raising the 83 and limping the LSCs. Stone cold bluffs require that you trime the field preflop and bet out from early position at the flop and probably the turn.

Flopping a draw in early position with the LSCs is, IMO, more fun than flopping it in late position. You'll bet it out damn near the size of the pot, and it's really unlikely to get raised enough to kill your pot odds. If that bet is called by 2-3 players, you're going to be paid well if the turn hits you.

"Unless you've stumbled upon a table full of people that love to limp and then fold on the flop"

You don't play $25 any more, do you LeFou :)

(great posts btw)

While learning this game, I've tried playing the SB a number of ways, and though I'm still learning, I can say that I play my best poker when I'm being very selective from the small blind.

I'm sure we could right an entire book on poker theory when playing from behind the blinds, but I'll only bring up a few points.

1) The blinds are in place to induce action. - That's why the exist. Limping garbage because of good 'pot odds' is misleading, and is exactly what the blinds are designed to do, induce action by luring people in with hands they would normally throw away. You now enter a pot for 'cheap' in really bad position with marginally good cards. Sure 'any hand can win', but with enough people in the hand to give you good pot odds for a call, you become a huge underdog playing way out of position. As a good players, aren't we trying to diminish the luck aspect of the game? Playing bad cards out of position is just bad poker. It's that simple. Why should a 'half off' sale make them any more enticing. Selling a piece of junk at half price doesn't make it any less of a piece of junk.

2) Any hand you can play in the SB is a hand worth raising.- Any hand that your willing to play from early position should also be worth a raise, so you should rarely ever limp here. Raise it up, show strength, and get a feel for what people behind you are holding. Scare away some marginal hands and make it a little easier to play the hand in bad position. The only hands I might limp in with are small pocket pairs that I'm playing for set value.

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Originally Posted by thirteen

Why should a 'half off' sale make them any more enticing. Selling a piece of junk at half price doesn't make it any less of a piece of junk.

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Because if I pay half a BB and I can win x BBs if I hit then I need to win one in x/0.5 (=2x) times but if I pay a full BB then I have to hit one in x times for it to be a profitable call. Half the risk, same reward.

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Originally Posted by thirteen

2) Any hand you can play in the SB is a hand worth raising.- Any hand thats your willing to play from early position should also be worth a raise, so you should never limp here.

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Are you going to raise that 75o with 4 limpers? That hand has potential but what happens if you get called by 2 or 3 of the limpers and you don't hit the flop? Then you either have to give up (you lose whatever your raise was 5bb+) or try and steal the pot by betting again (which could become quite expensive if you get called). If you are always raising playable hands from the SB then your opponents will catch on to what you are doing and then start reraising you and you won't be able to call that.

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Originally Posted by arkana

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Originally Posted by thirteen

2) Any hand you can play in the SB is a hand worth raising.- Any hand thats your willing to play from early position should also be worth a raise, so you should never limp here.

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Are you going to raise that 75o with 4 limpers? That hand has potential but what happens if you get called by 2 or 3 of the limpers and you don't hit the flop? Then you either have to give up (you lose whatever your raise was 5bb+) or try and steal the pot by betting again (which could become quite expensive if you get called). If you are always raising playable hands from the SB then your opponents will catch on to what you are doing and then start reraising you and you won't be able to call that.

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No I because as my post states you need to be MORE SELECTIVE, in the small blind. So I'd never touch that hand in early postion. Any hand you're willing to play in early position, you should be willing to raise with. Why would you want to play junk out of position? Somehow you managed to read the entire post and miss the point completely.

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Originally Posted by thirteen

No I because as my post states you need to be MORE SELECTIVE, in the small blind. So I'd never touch that hand in early postion. Any hand you're willing to play in early position, you should be willing to raise with. Why would you want to play junk out of position?

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And what if I tell you that I can play that hand for a profit from the small blind (with 4 limpers)?

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Originally Posted by thirteen

Somehow I managed to read the entire post and without thinking things through I am now accusing other posters of missing the point which makes me sound like a dumbass.

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FYP

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Originally Posted by arkana

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Originally Posted by thirteen

No I because as my post states you need to be MORE SELECTIVE, in the small blind. So I'd never touch that hand in early postion. Any hand you're willing to play in early position, you should be willing to raise with. Why would you want to play junk out of position?

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And what if I tell you that I can play that hand for a profit from the small blind (with 4 limpers)?

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Originally Posted by thirteen

Somehow I managed to read the entire post and without thinking things through I am now accusing other posters of missing the point which makes me sound like a dumbass.

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FYP

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Don't get mad because you missed the context of the post and come back trying to attack me. You read a post about playing conservative in the SB and then asked me how I'd play a 75 offsuit, I WOULDN'T PLAY IT. If you disagree thats fine, disagree and make a good post. Don't ask how I would play a junk hand after I've said that I wouldn't play junk in the small blind. You're begging the question. If you read the entire post, you'd see how first i talk about not playing junk, then go on to say in point two that I'd raise the hands I'd be willing to play. WHY? because they wouldn't be 75o gappers... they'd be legit hands like high PPs and AKs.

I want you to disagree with me, but make a good point. Don't dispute point two without understanding point one. Understand what my post is about, and dispute it. I want to here why you play loose in the BB, but don't ask me ridiculous questions about why I'd want to raise a junk hand, when I said i wouldn't even play them. Can we get back discussing SB play now?

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Originally Posted by thirteen

Don't get mad because you missed the context of the post and come back trying to attack me. You read a post about playing conservative in the SB and then asked me how I'd play a 75 offsuit, I WOULDN'T PLAY IT. If you disagree thats fine, disagree and make a good post. Don't ask how I would play a junk hand after I've said that I wouldn't play junk in the small blind. You're begging the question. If you read the entire post, you'd see how first i talk about not playing junk, then go on to say in point two that I'd raise the hands I'd be willing to play. WHY? because they wouldn't be 75o gappers... they'd be legit hands like high PPs and AKs.

I want you to disagree with me, but make a good point. Don't dispute point two without understanding point one. Understand what my post is about, and dispute it. I want to here why you play loose in the BB, but don't ask me ridiculous questions about why I'd want to raise a junk hand, when I said i wouldn't even play them. Can we get back discussing SB play now?

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You accused me of missing the point when in fact I understood what you were saying, but tried to point out to you that your suggestion of raising or folding from the small blind is not optimal and that just completing in the SB is often correct. Fact of the matter is that you can play a hand like 75o for a profit from the SB if you play well post flop.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Mac

In any game, at any level of holdem, if you are completing the small blind with 83 offsuit, you are pissing your chips away.)

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unless you're about to flop a boat, of course...

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/4...eofshit1gm.jpg

I'm never folding my small blind again!

{This post has been removed}

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Originally Posted by arkana

You accused me of missing the point when in fact I understood what you were saying, but tried to point out to you that your suggestion of raising or folding from the small blind is not optimal and that just completing in the SB is often correct. Fact of the matter is that you can play a hand like 75o for a profit from the SB if you play well post flop.

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Arkana, We're both getting way to worked up over this, seriously... :D

Arkana, I sincerely apologize for what I said about you missing the point, it was quite rude and immature of me.

I think this is an important and worthwhile debate and we should keep it going. I do believe you when you say you can make a profit on somewhat marginal hands from the SB, i never doubted what you were saying, just how you were trying to attack my logic, however, the arguement is my fault, as i should not have accused you of missing the point and found a more mature way to debate the topic, but thats done, its detracting from both our points.

Arkana, Since you play the SB different than I, I would like to ask some questions regarding your point of view. Do you play any hand from the SB? What are your criteria for a playable hand? Are you showing a profit from the small blind in general or only with certain hands or groups? Do you find you frequently fold on the flop or are you making probe bets.

I personally play much better poker in general when I'm playing tight from the SB. Just an observation I've made regarding myself.

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Originally Posted by thirteen

Arkana, We're both getting way to worked up over this, seriously... :D

Arkana, I sincerely apologize for what I said about you missing the point, it was quite rude and immature of me.

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No worries mate

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Originally Posted by thirteen

Do you play any hand from the SB? What are your criteria for a playable hand?

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Hands I will limp from the SB:
Connectors
One-gappers
Suited
A-rag

It depends on the number of limpers (read pot odds im getting, the more the better) as well as if i can draw for cheap (passive opponents) and whether I can get paid off by weaker hands.

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Originally Posted by thirteen

Are you showing a profit from the small blind in general or only with certain hands or groups? Do you find you frequently fold on the flop or are you making probe bets.

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I frequently fold on the flop. I am looking to flop flushes, straights, flush draws, straight draws (not idiot end ones), trips, two pair etc. (Not top pair crap kicker).

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Originally Posted by thirteen

I personally play much better poker in general when I'm playing tight from the SB. Just an observation I've made regarding myself.

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It takes discipline to not get tempted when you flop a good but not great hand, I still get burned from time to time.

I can't make marginal hands work for me from the blinds, I think my first position play is poor post-flop.

There seems to be two distinct types of cash game players. Those that will play almost anything from the SB when given good odds based on the number of limpers, and those that play really tight from the SB.

In a tournament/SNG they're are way more variables in play. Number of people at the table, size of the blinds, chip stack, etc... I play my blinds much differently in a tourney than in a cash game.