Party poker seperate from skins. Good or bad?

For players with rakeback, the short term results of this are horrible. They can no longer get that big monthly paycheck becuase they grind 36000 hands in the next month.

But what does it mean for the future of party poker? And before I say it, I would like to point out that I was totally right about the 50bb to 100bb cash game change so you should totally listen to me.

Break even players will die. Sorry. With fewer breakeven players at the table, that means you have more winning players and more losing players at your table.

The change will probably be from like 2 winners, 5 breakeven, 3 fish per table. To 2 winners, 3 breakeven, 5 fish. So 6 months from now, table selection will be very nice becuase mutlitabling TAggs and rocks will slowly dissappear and the waters will be a little less murky for the sharks. I'm not sure where the rakeback pimps and hos will go, but they certainly wont stand for the crappy rake at party.

-'rilla

Yeah this is weak. Just as I was getting into rakeback too.

I am relatively accepting of it. I never recieved Rakeback on Party, only on a skin.
I am mostly upset that this means table selection will drop for both Party, and the skins. I guess that is a point in your post, since the Rakeback players will now be playing the Skins while Party operates independently.
This means a good deal of MTTAGs will no longer be on the Party network.
That being said I think this is a horrible marketing decision for PartyGaming since the major draw to Party is the player base, and they just cut it down by a great deal.

i tried playing NL 25 on multipoker and that place is now a fukn rock garden. this is ridiculous!

i'm going back to bodog... after i clear another 1000 fukn hands to clear this fukn bonus cos fukn partypoker fukn screwed my fukn ass

I'm gonna try at a different time tonite but this is shite...

The rakeback breakeven players will either die quickly on a skin or migrate to party (or off the network) and die slower. But for the next month this sucks for the party network becuase the rocks will probably still be around and we wont be compensated with rakeback.

-'rilla

Also, I think it's a pretty good move by Party Poker becuase it's going to kill the skins and everyone will return back to Party without rakeback and Party will enjoy all the money in the internet.

Now, if Party were to offer rakeback, they'd corner the market easily.

-'rilla

i'm just so fukn pissed!

i wanna go and bang my head into the wall

GRRRRRRR!
I'm just gonna be a dance teacher instead of going pro

Man o man.. it takes forever to get in a table on MULTI [one with an avg pot >$5, haha]

** On a side note: How annoying is the "anti-bot" program on Party now?
I kept getting this pop up every two hands! Then it would freeze my table.. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by sunfunbunch

Man o man.. it takes forever to get in a table on MULTI [one with an avg pot >$5, haha]

** On a side note: How annoying is the "anti-bot" program on Party now?
I kept getting this pop up every two hands! Then it would freeze my table.. *sigh*

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Are you a bot?

Or more technically, are you using some type of program that bypasses the mouse action? That is one thing they look for, as well as scanning your harddrive for any programs they don't like.
Then they freeze your account and take your money.

Good Luck.

No, no and no. =)

It would come up here and there. They made you type certain letters to make sure that it was a REAL person that was playing the game, and NOT a bot.

Ofcourse I typed it in, and THEN I could play. It was just annoying, because I would be multi-tabling, and the 'pop up' would come up in one table, and mess up my game on other tables.

Just annoying!

My take is pretty simple.............. The Rakeback Ho's are going to go find some Rakeback somewhere.

That leaves a higher fish to shark ratio.

I believe this will be good for the better players in the long run.

Well, if you just look at party tonight, from an average saturday night. The games average pots are much higher.

What I believe we will see over time is the middle level 2+2s and semi pros will look for rakeback while the fish will stay with party. I think that the rakeback will be offset by a higher winrate for good players.

my plan now is to move my entire BR to Party Poker.

From there
I wont get any rakeback
BUt I can still 10 table with all the fish.

i'm STILL sitting here trying to work off the multipoker bonus

I'm finding a cure for insomnia! WHY OH WHY OH WHY do you have to screw us whores up the ass with that big pimpstick!??

but i'm making a steady profit by lagging it up (and showing my 74o when I take down the pot). I've had like no hands today and still making money but man I miss the fish

Im pissed because for the last 2-3 months ive cleared all my bonuses 4 tablin omaha hi and now with them seperated from each other the only one that will have enough tables is party poker.

Rilla's comments pretty much summed everything up. The multi-table rocks will stick around for a couple weeks on the skins because they can't handle the idea of no rakeback. They'll eventually get fed up with everyone at their table playing the same way they do and move to another site or suck it up and play on Party. Sadly I see the skins possibly drying up, especially ones like PokerNow which was having some problems even before the change. This change hurts the more serious players, especially LHE players, because they are more likely to take advantage of rakeback. For NL and tournament players, I see the change being more of a nuisance than anything else. This has potential positive ramifications though. The upside is that the most hardcore players will be more less inclined to play on Party as Okie mentioned. I expect the games to be somewhat softer intially as the rocks either move away or at least sit back temporarily and wait to see how things unfold. The average player doesn't belong to a rakeback program and more than likely plays on Party to begin with so they won't care as the change doesn't directly affect them. They'll keep playing as usual and the better player will benefit because of the better ratio of weak:strong player. Things will eventually balance themselves out as people begin to become accustomed to the change and the softer play attracts stronger players back.

I see a site such as PokerStars, which doesn't offer rakeback either, but has a large player base and a more reasonable rake structure benefiting as I expect some players will defect there.

As a side note, if you play MTTs you should take advantage of the guaranteed tournaments on the skins. Because the tournaments on the skins, with the exception of PokerNow, are independent of Party, I suspect the general decrease in traffic on these sites will make for large overlays until the sites make the necessary adjustments.

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I see a site such as PokerStars, which doesn't offer Rakeback either, but has a large player base and a more reasonable rake structure benefiting as I expect some players will defect there.

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Yeah I agree - with party skins splitting up they now have the largest poker room on the net too.

I just finished a 2 hr session on Party clearing TAKEIT and won a whopping 52BB.I repeat 52BB with some of my hands getting paid off.A few suckouts but that is a good thing since it means people are chasing my bets.I also noticed more players I hadn't seen before as well as none of the sharks who frequent the waters.I repeat I won 52BB in 2 hours playing reasonably solid poker.Perhaps this change may work out.

okie... i've calmed down.

I've got until the end of the month to finish my 850 or so multipoker hands left... but i've got to take it straight to party and clear the TAKEIT.

I don't know what i'm gonna do after that... perhaps if the players are so terrible I'll have to bite the bullet and play cold turkey... geez

I have decided that not having rakeback doesnt make that big of a idfference. Yes I lose out on a few hundred a month (potentially), but overall I am still a winning player and I will still pwn everyone on PP.

Do you think that the laggy Eurotrash players will still keep playing on Multipoker (and other skins)? They have rakeback, direct bank transfers and its tax free money to us. Where will the 16 tabling sng pros go? Someone already mentioned the higher stakes Party ring being easier than normally, why is that? Because all the rocks have been playing on the skins because of the rakeback and suddenly the fish who are playing high stakes without rakeback are left all alone to the deep waters without that many sharks?

I think it would be worth playing on Party now because of the lack of sharks, at least for some weeks before the poker ecosystem is balanced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pingviini

Do you think that the laggy Eurotrash players will still keep playing on Multipoker (and other skins)? They have rakeback, direct bank transfers and its tax free money to us. Where will the 16 tabling sng pros go? Someone already mentioned the higher stakes Party ring being easier than normally, why is that? Because all the rocks have been playing on the skins because of the rakeback and suddenly the fish who are playing high stakes without rakeback are left all alone to the deep waters without that many sharks?

I think it would be worth playing on Party now because of the lack of sharks, at least for some weeks before the poker ecosystem is balanced.

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I was the guy that mentioned that the higher stakes appear to be easier, I was pulling between 500 - 2k a day off of Empire with the sharks playing.

I sat for 2-3 hours watching Party this evening after the switch, and I think it will be easier to achieve those same parameters.

Edit: After reading that I think that doesn't come out right. I think there will be far less bad beats, because there will be less sharks. The game will be come more stress free.

This is largely because a majority of the people I saw playing had sh!tty bankroll management and were playing 600nl with 200-400 dollar stacks, easy to bully off the hands if you've got the right size stack.

I could be mistaken though.

I don't like it personally. for one, It makes the multipoker reloads a lot harder to clear, and I had a rakeback on Eurobet that's kind of pointless now.

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Originally Posted by The_Bankroll

I don't like it personally. for one, It makes the multipoker reloads a lot harder to clear, and I had a rakeback on Eurobet that's kind of pointless now.

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Thats the one pratfall, I think it will be interesting to find out what the migration percentage from the skins to PP will be. I, for one, hope it's low. It'll help my bankroll.

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Originally Posted by RbSX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The_Bankroll

I don't like it personally. for one, It makes the multipoker reloads a lot harder to clear, and I had a rakeback on Eurobet that's kind of pointless now.

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Thats the one pratfall, I think it will be interesting to find out what the migration percentage from the skins to PP will be. I, for one, hope it's low. It'll help my bankroll.

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I highly doubt it'll be low. This is gonna end up putting the skins out of business.

If the skins might get out of business do you think our money in them will be safe, I am considering keeping my multi account pretty low.

i'm sure if they were going to close down they'd give notice for people to cash out

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Originally Posted by The_Bankroll

i'm sure if they were going to close down they'd give notice for people to cash out

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I think that is a very poor assumption to make. I definately would not keep money in any skin that doesn't also have a casino/sports betting on it(basically, I'm not keeping money anywhere except Eurobet/Party anymore).

Wow. PP is *so* fishy.

I was up like $150 6 tabling NL25 for my reload. Got my AA preflop all in beat by AKs and tilted - finished $100 ahead.

but man, this beats rakeback... just dunno if i can make myself play without bonus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by salsa4ever

Wow. PP is *so* fishy.

I was up like $150 6 tabling NL25 for my reload. Got my AA preflop all in beat by AKs and tilted - finished $100 ahead.

but man, this beats rakeback... just dunno if i can make myself play without bonus

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Made a $50 Preflop bet today, 2nd guy calls, 3rd guy (short stack) goes all in, I reraised the 2nd guy to create a side pot. Guy hits runner runner for the straight. Sidepot saved my ass.

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Originally Posted by The_Bankroll

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Originally Posted by RbSX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The_Bankroll

I don't like it personally. for one, It makes the multipoker reloads a lot harder to clear, and I had a rakeback on Eurobet that's kind of pointless now.

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Thats the one pratfall, I think it will be interesting to find out what the migration percentage from the skins to PP will be. I, for one, hope it's low. It'll help my bankroll.

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I highly doubt it'll be low. This is gonna end up putting the skins out of business.

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I don't know how many people are going to migrate directly over to PP, I think alot of people will go to pokerstars.

Here's an example of the table domination I've been seeing so far.

http://www.fox302.com/userdata/RyanS...f/Example2.JPG


http://www.fox302.com/userdata/RyanS...f/example1.JPG

OK, I'm a pretty bright boy, but please explain to me, real slow like,
Why is this change going to screw up rakeback?
Why won't I still be able to camp at Eurobet/Multi/Empire 28 days a month and still have good outcomes?
I understand, a big pool of "I-just-saw-the-ad-on-TV" players is goot, but is that the only reason poker works for me?

The only conclusion I read in this thread that made logical sense [to me] was Boon's sadness over losing workable Omaha tables. THAT make sense.

'Rilla, I'd be happy to just believe your prediction based on prior picks, but I still don't see why -- you no explainee.

The shark/fish relatio will be higher because the MTTags have been playing on the skins because of the rakeback. OR you will play without rakeback on Party. I personally will multitable party for a while now when there is a lot of fish comp to sharks, this will be more profitable than playing on the skins right now, rakeback or not.

yeah eeeee, boon was saddened so much that last night, he was giving me lines from songs in a trivia session on AIM lol

Quote:

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Why is this change going to screw up Rakeback?
Why won't I still be able to camp at Eurobet/Multi/Empire 28 days a month and still have good outcomes?

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It won't change rakeback, but the game on the skins will likely change to the point that even with rakeback it won't be worth playing on them. When the average player opens a new account it's many times more likely to be on Party rather than a skin. Party has the name recognition and spends tons more on adverstising than all the skins combined. So who plays on the skins then? It's typically a regular player that already has a Party account, but opened up ones on the skins to take advantage of bonuses, rakeback and the ability to play more than 4 tables. It didn't matter if you were logging into EuroBet with all these other regulars because you were still able to play with all the fish that logged on via Party. The shark tanks had access to the kiddie pools so to speak. That access is now been denied and the sharks are left to swim among themselves. You'll still have your rakeback, but you'll be left to contend with better players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eeeee

OK, I'm a pretty bright boy, but please explain to me, real slow like,
Why is this change going to screw up rakeback?

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Rakeback is very difficult to get on Party poker. You can keep rakeback on a skin, but you'll be playing against other rakeback multirocks.

Quote:

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Why won't I still be able to camp at Eurobet/Multi/Empire 28 days a month and still have good outcomes?

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Other people will be doing the same. Most rocks hate to pay you off. Nut peddling will be an experience is drawing blood from stone.

Quote:

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I understand, a big pool of "I-just-saw-the-ad-on-TV" players is goot, but is that the only reason poker works for me?

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Yes.

In the party world previous there were 3 groups of people. Winners, breakeven and fish. The breakeven players pool was almost as large as the fish pool. So the breakdown might look like 10% Sharks, 40% breakeven, 50% fish. By removing breakeven, they'll eventually go bust (but slowly) or immediately migrate somewhere else where they can get a nice fat rakeback check to live off of. So the future will have fewer breakeven players (Who are tough to get money from.) per table and more fish per table.

You can see it for yourself if you play on the skins about a month from now.

-'rilla

OIC -- TY.


I'm going to quit poker now. I sure don't want to play tables full of guys like eeeee. :wink:

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Originally Posted by woody350ep

yeah eeeee, boon was saddened so much that last night, he was giving me lines from songs in a trivia session on AIM lol

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I was doing that because I was getting all the Mp3s off my Mp3 player back on my computer after my hard drive failed and aaron couldnt seem to get any right

dont forget to watch the new episode of breaking bonaduce tonight everyone - its gonna be wild

losing break even players is bad.

u want more break even players in the pool, they win enough from the fish to keep themselves happy and in turn the whole lot of them pay me.

if we only had money makers and money losers, the money losers woudl all bust out. Leaving just sharks.

Rilla, would u rather play against a break even player and siphon their money for a week, or break a fish in a few hours and never have him come back? Will there be a constant flow of fish into online poker?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vqc

losing break even players is bad.

u want more break even players in the pool, they win enough from the fish to keep themselves happy and in turn the whole lot of them pay me.

if we only had money makers and money losers, the money losers woudl all bust out. Leaving just sharks.

Rilla, would u rather play against a break even player and siphon their money for a week, or break a fish in a few hours and never have him come back? Will there be a constant flow of fish into online poker?

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I don't think break even players serve the purpose to keep the fish alive any longer than normal.

And with fewer multirocks, table selection will be a breeze.

-'rilla

I'm going to sink the rest of my goddamn life into this Multi bonus now....it's going sooooo slooooow...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vqc

losing break even players is bad.

u want more break even players in the pool, they win enough from the fish to keep themselves happy and in turn the whole lot of them pay me.

if we only had money makers and money losers, the money losers woudl all bust out. Leaving just sharks.

Rilla, would u rather play against a break even player and siphon their money for a week, or break a fish in a few hours and never have him come back? Will there be a constant flow of fish into online poker?

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I don't think break even players serve the purpose to keep the fish alive any longer than normal.

And with fewer multirocks, table selection will be a breeze.

-'rilla

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if all the EP multiorkcs went back to PP and 10 tabled, woudlnt it all be the same.

I kno im going to 10 table.

half of them will slowly bust.

-'rilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

half of them will slowly bust.

-'rilla

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how mnay SNG players do u think live off of rakeback?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vqc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

half of them will slowly bust.

-'rilla

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how mnay SNG players do u think live off of rakeback?

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My comments are really completely about cash game players.

-'rilla

it's fucked up... i hate it!

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vqc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

half of them will slowly bust.

-'rilla

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how mnay SNG players do u think live off of rakeback?

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My comments are really completely about cash game players.

-'rilla

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lets discuss SNGs now =D.
Its more vqc relevant.

http://tinypic.com/eg23w6.jpg

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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

http://tinypic.com/eg23w6.jpg

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why?
just cuz theres no rakeback doesnt mean its over.

if they allow rakeback again, would the party be back?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

The rakeback breakeven players will either die quickly on a skin or migrate to party (or off the network) and die slower. But for the next month this sucks for the party network becuase the rocks will probably still be around and we wont be compensated with rakeback.

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Fuck that, rakeback was 1/3 of my win-rate.

If party would allow rakeback again they would kill all the skins immediately. There just would be no reason to play on the skins. Personal note: Withdraw ALL the remaining money from Multi when home! I hadnt played on PP ring for a while but I quaded there yesterday, seemed pretty easy and I will definitely grind some ring there even though I sweared I would not play there for a while. The play just seems quite lot looser than it seemed to be some months ago.

I would like to continue discussion about the future of sng's. I guess it is the same thing than with ring. The 16 tabling 2+2'ers have been playing on multi and other skins..

Am I the only one whose rakeback provider from a skin set up a deal with Party? Granted, it's a lower percentage than I was getting but it's still around 20%. If I actually played on PP, that deal would sound relatively decent.

Rakeback on Party?? Tell me more!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pingviini

Rakeback on Party?? Tell me more!

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Agreed, PM me or Post more!

Right now all the Pimps are in Chinese fire drill mode. I would wait a week or two for all the dust to settle. Go beat up the fish on some other sites or go back to your old Party account. Don't jump into a big money deal with someone who doesn't have good references.

I can get rakeback there :)

I got a message from my Eurobet rakeback affiliate. The preliminary details were sketchy but they did say that existing PP players were eligible, but "If you already have an account you cannot use the same screename and email address you used for your existing account. You will also have to use a different funding option when making deposits."

None of this makes much sense to me. First off, while I'm glad existing PP players can get a rakeback deal (if this is correct), I don't really understand why. Up until now, once you signed up at a site, there's no non-fraudulent way to get rakeback at that site. If PP wants to kill the skins, as the OP in this thread suggests, then maybe they've made an exception. But what's up with having to use a new email address and funding option when making deposits??? Does that mean no more NeTeller if I've already used it at PP (and who the hell hasn't?)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drtofu66

Does that mean no more NeTeller if I've already used it at PP (and who the hell hasn't?)?

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Time to find Firepay.

Wait a week or two for this to settle. Party has a great chance to make things right and we'll see what they do.

Sorry I feel like donny from the big lebowski, wandering into a conversation halfway though, all confused n'shit.

So... is empirepoker separating from party poker? when (did this/will this)* happen?

* delete as applicable

they just got divorced. Trust issues.

-'rilla

Happened last Saturday.

It was down for a while on saturday... and then there were WAY less tables available... i thought it was some sort of weird maintenance thing!

Holy shit there are only 5500 players on EP at the moment.

I guess my poker-ro0m-of-choice just changed.

I am SO glad you posted this - was gearing up to use the october reload tomorrow.

Cheers ppl.

I just like playing poker.

I played 10/20 on Party last night, and as Fnord might say
"That was the best I have felt about losing $500"

The average table VP$IP was above 30, with almost everyone hanging around 'til showdown.

This is a HUGE change from the TAGfest that 10/20 was a week ago.

Loss of rakeback is bad. Very bad. I lived off the rakeback, and everything I won stayed in the bankroll. This hurts.

This was from one rakeback site:
October 11 2005
Most of you are aware that party poker has separated its skins from its tables. This means there are two networks of tables now, Party Poker tables, and a set of skins tables (Empire, Eurobet, Intertops, MultiPoker). This has caused some chaos as players are scrambling to signup Party Poker accounts. We have been in talks with Party to establish a program that is authorized by them. There are several offers floating about now that affiliates have rushed to get.

We have plans in the works to be offering Party Poker shortly to provide the most secure long standing rakeback option. At worst under our approach you will wait a few days to signup, but the signup will be safe and endorsed by Party. By rushing, we would enter into a shaky agreement with a site that clearly does not like traditional rakeback. In our opinion, the few extra days for confirmation are well worth it. In line with our longstanding trustworthy reputation with our users, please be assured we will make things as easy, secure and sensible as possible for everyone involved.

Are they just trying to keep customers happy or you think PP will officially have rakeback?

r8ed: I have the same guy, and everyone seems to trust him. Personally, I'm going to use my old party account until this all gets sorted out. I can live without rakeback for a few days.

The sky is not falling people.

I see what people are saying here but will it really hurt playing on Empire? I'm multitabling and nut-peddling pretty much. I was on the verge of starting a bonus whore campaign that rivaled some of the FTR greats. But now it seems I should just go to PP and try to make money the old fashioned way. I signed up for rakeback but my first deposit into Eurobet was going to happen this evening to get my free $50. Should I forget about trying to bonus whore for now until things become more apparent?

I would wait a few days (or maybe a few weeks) until the dust settles.

Bonus whoring can definitely be profitable right now....but I'd say wait a while, as it may be more profitable again in the future once everyone gets used to the new system.

I think the Empire 100% bonus is going to bring in some players. I nut peddled there last night and pulled down 48BB/100 counting the (old, 50%) bonus

48bb/100 playing at Empire? Nut peddaling?

Was this just playing PP's, AK, AQ, and hoping to flop something huge in the blinds?



GW

I think I saw him put money in the pot like twice out of the whole night...so yea, something like that =)

I've been playing a lot loser then that (but still tight) against the rocks, mixed results. Overall I'm up about 4PTBB/100 before bonus. I'm hoping LeFou is right about the 100% bonus bringing in folks so the hands go by faster~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ultimate George

48bb/100 playing at Empire? Nut peddaling?

Was this just playing PP's, AK, AQ, and hoping to flop something huge in the blinds?



GW

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Sample size?

-'rilla

I don't know why I typed that. He must have hit a good run.

I played about 200 hands today...Goddamn was it slow going. The highest average pot per table was FIVE DOLLARS. And it went down pretty quick from there, too. Just a bunch of players nut peddaling. You better hope that your monster runs into a smaller monster.