KK AA nightmare

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10-02-2005, 10:26 PM
mouteut

KK AA nightmare

I seriously think in the last month, the hands that have made me loose the most cash is KK AA. Even if i raise like 20x BB, it seems people still call me and actually catch set/2 pair almost every times.

My question is, should i be less agressive post flop with them? i currently just check if theres any ace with KK and i just all in with my AA.

PokerStars Game #2713915506: Tournament #13309469, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/10/02 - 22:02:20 (ET)
Table '13309469 4' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Twin-Geckos (1360 in chips)
Seat 2: BlueSkyJack (1950 in chips)
Seat 3: Floofy (2920 in chips)
Seat 5: gem1969 (1370 in chips)
Seat 6: BitterBro (1380 in chips)
Seat 7: redhandedace (1360 in chips)
Seat 8: solo Sangre (1560 in chips)
Seat 9: tporsche00 (1600 in chips)
Twin-Geckos: posts small blind 10
BlueSkyJack: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Floofy [Ks Kh]
Floofy: calls 20
gem1969: folds
BitterBro: calls 20
redhandedace: calls 20
solo Sangre: calls 20
tporsche00: folds
Twin-Geckos: raises 20 to 40
BlueSkyJack: calls 20
Floofy: raises 180 to 220
BitterBro: folds
redhandedace: calls 200
solo Sangre: folds
Twin-Geckos: calls 180
BlueSkyJack: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qh 6s Ts]
Twin-Geckos: checks
Floofy: bets 740
redhandedace: calls 740
Twin-Geckos: folds
*** TURN *** [Qh 6s Ts] [7h]
Floofy: bets 1960 and is all-in
redhandedace: calls 400 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Qh 6s Ts 7h] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Floofy: shows [Ks Kh] (a pair of Kings)
redhandedace: shows [Th Td] (three of a kind, Tens)
redhandedace collected 3020 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3020 | Rake 0
Board [Qh 6s Ts 7h 9h]
Seat 1: Twin-Geckos (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: BlueSkyJack (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Floofy showed [Ks Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: gem1969 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: BitterBro folded before Flop
Seat 7: redhandedace showed [Th Td] and won (3020) with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 8: solo Sangre folded before Flop
Seat 9: tporsche00 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Other day, i was in a 12$ tourney and i raised to 120 with AA (we had 1500 chips). EVERYONE calls me. Flop comes rags, 2 7 K or something like that. Guy goes all in from first position. I told myself......would he really all in if he flopped a set or 2 pairs....i surely wouldnt. So i called him and of course he holded 77.

The best sucess ive had with these hand is to all in pre flop. When i try to post flop play them, i always end up loosing.

Also i got an off topic question.....i don't understand why people from position who bluff on the flop bets the pot. I usually use a small bet, and it usually makes them fold, and if they call it usually means theyre on a draw and i fire at them on the turn. I'm just saying that i belive that a 33% bet does almost the same effect as 100% except if the guy is on draw, but if he reraise you, you loose a lot less.

For example say im on the button, i raise 80 (blinds 10/20) and the BB calls. Flop comes AK2. Instead of betting 160, i prefer to bet 80. This way, if the guy has nothing it will probably still scare him, otherwise i just loose 80 more. And lets say i had AK. I don't see the point of betting 160.

Am i wrong?
10-02-2005, 10:52 PM
jukejointroach

your bullets and cowboys are gonna pay off in the end. play them aggressively and try to push those weaker draws off.

and your second question kinda relates to the first. sounds like you're just not playing strong hands aggressively enough postflop.

a 1/3 pot sized bet on the flop is giving the guy on yer left fine odds to chase that last spade; if you throw in a pot sized bet, the chaser is making a mistake by calling. he might get lucky, but his play won't hold up over the long run.
10-02-2005, 11:21 PM
mouteut

You didn't get it, i play my bullets TOO agressively, i just all in the flop if its not too dangerous, and thats making me loose cash since 50% of the time ive been running into two pâir or set and the rest of the time they fold.(Note, that is is SNG, i dont all in in cash games right away).

Quote:

a 1/3 pot sized bet on the flop is giving the guy on yer left fine odds to chase that last spade; if you throw in a pot sized bet, the chaser is making a mistake by calling. he might get lucky, but his play won't hold up over the long run.

Well the 1/3 is used when i have nothing to make the guy fold. If the guy is on a flush draw, i will know and fi9re the turn harder if he miss it. For example if i raise and an ace hit, ill try to make him think i got the ace with a lil raise that looks like a trap, and it seems to work. And when i do have the ace, i still do the same (unless im scared of a draw), Cuz i want him to call me.[/quote]
10-03-2005, 03:54 AM
TLR

You want to play AA and KK agressively, get to heads up or 3 way pot, the statistics will catch up eventually.

Quote:

My question is, should i be less agressive post flop with them? i currently just check if theres any ace with KK and i just all in with my AA.

If you got to heads up there is no reason to check KK, you raised preflop, hrow in a continuation bet and fold to reraise. If he does not have an A he will fold.

Quote:

Other day, i was in a 12$ tourney and i raised to 120 with AA (we had 1500 chips). EVERYONE calls me. Flop comes rags, 2 7 K or something like that. Guy goes all in from first position. I told myself......would he really all in if he flopped a set or 2 pairs....i surely wouldnt. So i called him and of course he holded 77.

If 9 people saw the flop you can't assume your overpair is good enough, someone is bound to catch something.

Quote:

Also i got an off topic question.....i don't understand why people from position who bluff on the flop bets the pot. I usually use a small bet, and it usually makes them fold, and if they call it usually means theyre on a draw and i fire at them on the turn. I'm just saying that i belive that a 33% bet does almost the same effect as 100% except if the guy is on draw, but if he reraise you, you loose a lot less.

As a rule of thumb a 1/3 of the pot is too weak, it gives odds for people to chase, and it opens you up to more reraise bluffs without the agressor risking too much
10-03-2005, 06:02 PM
mouteut

So from what i understand, you want to make your pre flop raise 20% of your own stack so that you can safely all in the flop? that will make them fold a lot but its better than loose ur money.

Cuz whitout any read, its hard to tell if wheter or not i should call his all in on a rag flop
10-04-2005, 12:54 AM
jukejointroach

pfr 3-5x bb. or whatever it's taking to get down to 1 or 2 others. lead out with a 1/2 to pot sized bet to see where you stand. as harrington says "to define your hand."

remember, if they're calling with bad odds, and a pot sized bet will do it, they are making a mistake. these mistakes will add up in the long run.
10-04-2005, 01:54 AM
DaNutsInYoEye

Dude, you're screenname is "floofy" There is no way you're going to prevent being everyone's bitch.
10-04-2005, 03:11 AM
Greedo017

a lot goes into sng's, the blinds vs. your stack size vs. number of players left will tell you a lot about what to do. in general, early on, bet a lot with aa/kk, i think you played this hand ok. later on, bet less, trap people.

don't get yourself into the mentality of "with aa/kk i am trying to bet so much that i'm playing for stacks no matter what the situation". learning to play them post flop is a good thing you shouldn't avoid it in all situations.
10-13-2005, 10:39 AM
Pelion

i think in the situation you have AAyou definatly should not go all in on the flop when you still have so many chips left.
with everyone calling the chance of one pair being the best hand is tiny.

Everyone called before the flop. Not everyone can have a hand so its not that unlikely that you are up against a K7, K2, or trips.
By going all in you are taking away their chance to make a mistake because you will very rarely be called when you are winning if everyone else has missed the flop and you will always be called by 2 pair or better.

if your raise was to try and force missed hands to fold so they cant draw out on you then raising half of your stack will almost certainly do the same job and you may even be able to get away with less.
it sounds like you got very unlucky with being called by so many players but how big was your raise. If you only raised to twice the big blind then you are always going to get alot of callers. Otherwise you just got unlucky. In short there is no need at all to go all in early in a tournament with 8/9 people against you when you only hold 1 pair.