Your play?

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09-06-2005, 09:30 PM
spino1i

Your play?

Villain unknown, whats your play here and why? or do you bet out?

***** Hand History for Game 2666845007 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, September 06, 21:24:46 EDT 2005
Table Table 48811 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Kingfish__ ( $118.25 )
Seat 3: pokesquid ( $198 )
Seat 4: PROF99 ( $233.65 )
Seat 6: snuffyboy ( $532.10 )
Seat 8: imallin988 ( $260 )
Seat 9: freestyle19 ( $214.10 )
Seat 10: skully22 ( $200.20 )
Seat 5: DOKCTOR ( $119 )
Seat 7: dhatcher4 ( $47.30 )
Seat 1: FreddieBeach ( $200 )
Kingfish__ posts small blind [$1].
pokesquid posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Kingfish__ [ Jd Jc ]
PROF99 folds.
DOKCTOR folds.
snuffyboy calls [$2].
dhatcher4 folds.
imallin988 folds.
freestyle19 folds.
skully22 raises [$8].
Kingfish__ calls [$7].
pokesquid folds.
snuffyboy folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 5h, Th ]
Kingfish__ checks.
skully22 bets [$20].
>You have options at Table 49238 Table!.
Kingfish__ ???
09-06-2005, 09:32 PM
ilikeaces86

AJ- AKh's or 1010-AA is definetely in his range
09-06-2005, 09:34 PM
spino1i

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

AJ- AKh's or 1010-AA is definetely in his range

Yeh ok, so whats the plan of action then?
09-06-2005, 09:42 PM
Fnord

I want position or more information to continue with this hand. Although with 50xBB effective stacks I'm more inclined to continue.
09-06-2005, 09:43 PM
spino1i

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I want position or more information to continue with this hand.

so you're advocating a fold then?
09-06-2005, 09:48 PM
Fnord

I'm saying it's a difficult spot out of position with no other information. After reviewing stack sizes I could go either way here.
09-06-2005, 11:02 PM
dsaxton

I would lead out on the flop. Generally a player with overcards will just call or fold unless he's particularly aggressive. His reaction should give you a better sense of where you stand, I think.
09-06-2005, 11:12 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I would lead out on the flop. Generally a player with overcards will just call or fold unless he's particularly aggressive. His reaction should give you a better sense of where you stand, I think.

You're assuming a predictable reaction from an unknown opponent. My reservation betting out here is that unless he correctly folds you're left in a difficult spot out of position with 2 rounds of betting to come.
09-06-2005, 11:14 PM
Surf_Thug

I'm just a 25nl noob with a question, sorta...

Wouldn't you want to re-raise pre-flop with a hand like jacks so you arn't in this posotion post flop with no information about what his cards are?

If you re-raise pre-flop and get just called, he's probably on pocket tens or lower, or Ak/AQ.

If you get re-raise you can assume he's on QQ/KK/AA and muck the hand before getting to expensive streets.

With a flop like this and no re-raise it seems to me that you have no idea where you stand, and it's going to take you $50+ dollars to find out when you could have done it for $10 pre-flop. Or maybe would a tricky player at this level just call pre-flop anyways with AA/KK/QQ to throw you off?

I'm not critisizing any play at all, I'm just trying to better understand the logic.
09-06-2005, 11:31 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I would lead out on the flop. Generally a player with overcards will just call or fold unless he's particularly aggressive. His reaction should give you a better sense of where you stand, I think.

You're assuming a predictable reaction from an unknown opponent. My reservation betting out here is that unless he correctly folds you're left in a difficult spot out of position with 2 rounds of betting to come.

I'm not assuming a predictable reaction, but betting at least puts the opponent in an awkward situation if he only has overcards, and it increases the chances of him acting in such a way that reveals his weakness if he is weak.

If you check to him, he's going to bet with anything. If you bet into him and make a statement about your hand, you're going to get a clearer sense of what he has based on his reaction because if he raises, it's less likely he's bluffing than if you'd checked to him and he made a bet.
09-06-2005, 11:36 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

If you check to him, he's going to bet with anything.

How is this a problem? Do you think you have the best hand or not?
09-06-2005, 11:40 PM
DimitriT

I don't get it. You obviously got the flop you were looking for. Why not bet it? If you were worried about overpairs to your jacks you should've folded preflop unless you are just hoping for a set. Your play looks weak and it invites a continuation bet from any competent opponent.
09-06-2005, 11:43 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by DimitriT

Your play looks weak and it invites a continuation bet from any competent opponent.

You're an active poster, but statements like this puzzle me. If you think you have the best hand, what's the problem with them putting money into the pot? If our opponent is on 6 outs, are we happy with a correct fold and small raised pot?
09-06-2005, 11:45 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

If you check to him, he's going to bet with anything.

How is this a problem? Do you think you have the best hand or not?

I thought that was sort of the whole point of this thread. He doesn't know if he has the best hand or not.
09-06-2005, 11:49 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I thought that was sort of the whole point of this thread. He doesn't know if he has the best hand or not.

Does he think he has the best hand here say 60% of the time? Do we ever really know if we have the best hand?

For what it's worth, I generally don't like it when my opponents make correct decisions. I also like it when they put money into the pot when I have the best of it. Many of the suggestions so far are seem to run counter to these principals.
09-06-2005, 11:56 PM
PokerPatNEU

He raised from the button pre flop with a limper and the blinds money in the pot. JJ on a raggy undercard board beats the majority of hands that generally make that play.

Bet 20$ on the flop and the rest of the hand will play itself.
09-06-2005, 11:57 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I thought that was sort of the whole point of this thread. He doesn't know if he has the best hand or not.

Does he think he has the best hand here say 60% of the time? Do we ever really know if we have the best hand?

For what it's worth, I generally don't like it when my opponents make correct decisions. I also like it when they put money into the pot when I have the best of it. Many of the suggestions so far are seem to run counter to these principals.

Well, who is making the mistake when the opponent bets and you call or raise?
09-07-2005, 12:00 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

He raised from the button pre flop with a limper and the blinds money in the pot. JJ on a raggy undercard board beats the majority of hands that generally make that play.

Bet 20$ on the flop and the rest of the hand will play itself.

Ok, now we've established that we think he has the best hand.

If he's going to auto-bet the flop 90%+ of the time, how can it be correct to bet into him?
09-07-2005, 09:54 AM
DimitriT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by DimitriT

Your play looks weak and it invites a continuation bet from any competent opponent.

You're an active poster, but statements like this puzzle me. If you think you have the best hand, what's the problem with them putting money into the pot? If our opponent is on 6 outs, are we happy with a correct fold and small raised pot?

Sorry if I'm not clear. Here's why I don't want to check raise in this situation: I want information on how well my jacks are doing and I want to get it cheap. I also want it early, because I am OOP and it will cost me more to get it later. A check-raise (I asssume that's your play here - I would not even consider a smooth call) will cost you 3-4 bets more than a standard bet. JJ is just not strong enough for me to play it this way, especially without a read. The way the hand stands, the opp. is representing an overpair. He may be sitting on 6 outs as you point out but if his overpair is real and holds up you are looking at being out 20 to 30 bets to show it down.
09-07-2005, 10:49 AM
jstrope

Would it be wrong to raise in order to gather information here?

If I'm in your seat here, I would have bet the flop (2/3p). However, considering your check, I think I'd be forced to raise (x2) here and would probably fold if he played back at me.
09-07-2005, 11:27 AM
DaHorror

If you were calling for set value only (being out of position, and as it appears) - then I'd just lay it down. Especially since you have no read on the guy. He could be playing 78 this way, or a pair of 9s, AT, who knows.
If you were playing as an overpair, then why not bet the flop 2/3 or pot? Unless you wanted to check-raise in which case go for it and see if he's smart enough to fold or reraise. Though with the lack of information he has from you there's little chance he would put YOU on an overpair.