Ring game frustration!!!

I've been playing online for a couple months and I'm very frustrated by my ring game play. I just can't seem to make it work. I typically begin to deplete my bankroll and go back to play a few SnG's to get back to even. Then I sit down at a cash game and have a break even or a negative session.

I feel lost, like I'm missing something in regards to ring play. I feel pretty confident in my MTT and SnG performance, and thought it would translate well over to ring but it does not appear to.

I'm playing tight aggressive, so when i get a hand and bet it people fold because I'm the 'rock'. Ok, so i start playing a bit looser, try to steal some pots. Nope, get called/raised and fold my bluff or commit and get drawn out to a higher pair on the river and turn.

Bad beats a plenty... Had QT in big blind, flop brings 2 more queens, I make a small bet, get raised by loose player. I put him on a Q w/bad kicker, so i push. I was right. But he draws out out on me and fills up on the river. I know this play has positive EV but I'm frustrated with my performance as a whole and this does not help.

Very frustrating... I'm tempted to stick with SnG's where i've had success but I like the convenience of a cash game. I can come and go at my whim (unfortunately i have to plan poker around my life not the other way around )

What limit are you playing at?
That about sums up my experience in 25$ NL

My low limit cash game is completely different from my SnG/MTT tourney games. In cash games, I play the 6-man tables, and I become a maniac. It is wierd, because I don't even think about it, but my I play 50+% of the hands in the 6 man ring games.

I raise about 30% of the hands, and usually bet out the flop. Most players at the low limits cash games are so afraid that they are going to lose money, that they tighten up their game. But if there are a bunch of calling machines at your table, then it would be a good idea to tighten up your game some.

The main thing is to just change your game to the opposite of what your table does.

First its good to see you cn make money from sng/tourney play. If this is possible then i think you must play these as a priority to gate your 'roll up to a nice comfortable level. Then i sugegst you put aside say $50/$100 and go to either the $2 or $10 nl tables and work on your ring game.
My ring game took a good few months to become just break even (i had made a good amount on small sngs and mtt) once it did, i worked hard to improve it by reading and re reading posts here and studying my game and winning/losing hands. It may simply be that your in a bad run at the cash table or you need to practice more and gain experience.
I suggest you make a nice 'roll playing sng/mtt if that makes you profit then put aside a learning fee forthe cash tables and really stick at it and practice.
Hope this might help.

A couple months isn't a very big sample size. If you are successful at sng/mtt play then I suggest you play those. If you have some reason why you prefer ring then pick up small stakes holdem, read it twice and post hands here for analysis, we'll help you out.

If everyone is folding to you when you raise pre-flop, then raise less (3xBB maybe?). But if you're playing at $25NL, you're giving your opponents too much credit - most of them won't notice your image or your style, and if the do, it'll be after a relatively large number of hands (or if they have handy Poker Tracker stats on you to hand). But before you get to this point, YOU should have an idea of whether these players see a lot of flops, are passive, loose, tight, weak, playing scared, maniacs etc., and you can tailor your game to that.

Yesterday I had KK on the button and every single player before me put in a min bet. I raised to 8xBB in the hope of isolating one or two playes, and they all folded. Next time I tried almost exactly the same thing (with AKs) I got 4 callers. I'm still trying to work out if there's a moral to this tale.

Indeed, ring is much different than SNGs. I doubt people are respecting your image, it is more likely you have too small of a sample size to make that determination. I went through exactly what you did. I thought people were folding to my tight image when I came in so I loosened up. But when I loosened up I would lose money. The solution is…don’t loosen up. If people fold 4 times in a row to your PF raise (of 4xbb or less) or any flop bet then you are at the wrong table. Leave and find another. It’s that simple. Don’t loosen up. That is the worst thing you could do. Keep at it, it took me months to learn how to make a profit. Expect it to take a while.

Thanks guys, I'm playing low stakes games .02/.04 NL tables. The people are all over the map. Mostly loose passive. I just can't seem to make any real money at the table. I don't want to just walk away from it and say "well those guys are maniacs is certainly not me who's bad..." I for one reason or another cannot seem to beat the table. I feel like i'm either giving away money on mediocre hands or sitting forever waiting for 'playable' cards.

In tourney's I'm able to make reads and adjust my play appropriately but it seems like reads are useless at these low stake games because they attract to many casual players who are just all over the map.

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Originally Posted by thirteen

In tourney's I'm able to make reads and adjust my play appropriately but it seems like reads are useless at these low stake games because they attract to many casual players who are just all over the map.

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I think you have hit the nail on the head here. You are trying to play sensible solid poker and all around you have no idea. I am going through that at the moment.

In the small tourneys, once the all in and stupid bluffers get kicked out you find your play is working. The danger is that to get the same quality you have to move up to higher stakes in the cash games. So you are going to need to get your balance up first and then as suggested be prepared to play cash at a higher level.

Thanks again guys, seems like the overwhelming opinion is to get the bankroll up through SnG's where I feel I am playing strongly and then play higher limit cash games where I can actually hope to improve my game against skilled players.

Just keep in mind that it is absurd to think you will make more money off more skilled players. You make money on other players mistakes. Period. There is no other way to make money. The more mistakes other players make the more you can capitalize on it. It is logical (even expected) that higher stakes players make less mistakes. Don’t delude yourself into thinking you will play better against better players.
You just haven’t figured out how to beat these players yet.

Forget table image at these levels - nobody pays attention. Nobody even pays attention that you raised preflop once the flop hits. I had the same sucess at SNG's because some people do respect a raise and table image there. Ring is totally different. Never bluff because it doesn't work. If you stick to quality hands, you will be OK.

Yup. Unless you play <10% of hands or >50% of hands it really won't make much of a difference to the players around you.

Oh, and bluffing does work - you just have to watch the players who fold to flop bets. If you're in a hand with one or two of them and an anonymous flop hits, bung in a 4xBB bet and watch them scamper away. If they call, then make sure you improve on the turn or check/fold; if they raise, fold. But say 75% of the time you'll win.

My advice is about time. I’ve found if I try less then 2hrs to play I feel too rushed and it makes me play marginal hands. Seeing as high-level tactics don’t work at micro limits I end up losing money. Patience to wait for good hands and to be able to get away from them when you know you are beat, or even suspect is key. I have taped to the top of my computer – “You only have to win, you don’t have to win right now.”

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Originally Posted by BrokeSucca

My advice is about time. I’ve found if I try less then 2hrs to play I feel too rushed and it makes me play marginal hands. Seeing as high-level tactics don’t work at micro limits I end up losing money. Patience to wait for good hands and to be able to get away from them when you know you are beat, or even suspect is key. I have taped to the top of my computer – “You only have to win, you don’t have to win right now.”

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Great point! I think i'm also guilty of 'rushing' sometimes. Thanks!

I think the best advice I've ever gotten for nl ring games is "just be patient, the fishes will pay you off".