Did I play this wrong - AKo?

I was SB in the early part of a tourney. Raise by player 8 (2 x BB) called by 9 & 10. I raised 4.5BB called by 3 players.

Flop came 8 A K (2 spades). So 2 pair looking good - bet half the pot to encourge the others to keep betting. Called by 9, then raised all in by player 10.

Decided to call as I discounted AA & KK for his hand. He went on to hit his flush.

End of tourney for me.

Now I know he overbet the pot for the flop - but would it have been correct for me to have gone all in immeadiately after the flop and finished it? The idot would have probably called anyway. [I think he is an idiot, that is why I am asking!]. Should I have folded?

If the other guy constantly plays like this then I would win in the long run but these plays hurt and can make me fold when I should be playing hard.

The call is correct for sure.

As to the bet size, I would go about PS here. AI is overkill and SHOULD only be called by a set or someone unlucky enough to have a lower two pair, which given the pre flop action is not likely.

With two opps in 1/2 PS is a bit small - it gives the first opp 2/1, which with implied odds is good enough for most folks. Plus if he calls, the next opp gets 3/1, which is good enough for anyone to call with the flush draw here. You want to make them pay to chase, but not bet so much that they WON'T chase. Chasers are what make you money. 2/3 times you take this guy's whole stack.

Quote:

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and can make me fold

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Which is why his play isn't as bad as you make it out to be. He hits his flush about 33% of the time - if you and other opp fold about 20% of the time, the play is profitable in the long term. Because of your lowish bet and the first opp just calling, he may have thought you were both weak and he could win right now - but if not he's got outs.

I think calling the all in is the correct play always in mtt play here. You have the hand, he needs help (plus remember you have a few miricle cards to the nuts)
I have only a short criticism here. Yes you want to encourage other players to stay in the pot when you have top two pair but on a board with two spades betting half the pot gives someone drawing to the flush just about odds to call here. This board is active with draws. Therefore in this situation i'd bet a minimum of 3/4 the pot (probably bet or even overbet the pot if you think you have a chaser). You kill the odds for anyone who has a draw whether here it is a gutshot (eg JT/QJ) or the flush draw. If someone wants to call for bad odds thats fine by me and should be by you too.
With top two pair here your calling any push. Every so often a set gets turned over and thats just unlucky but most often it will be the draw. ALWAYS make the call with top two pair here. Your made hand is a huge favourite to hold up here.
Thus your play was fine just bet the flop a bit more.

Thinking back - I forgot the implied odds especially as I was pushing for them to carry on betting. Thanks for that.

Good to remember that you are going to fill up about 17% of the time by showdown. This just makes it that much sweeter when a draw calls you.

First, the hand turned out like it turned out. But let's start at the beginning. Why did you raise 4.5x with a raise and 2 callers ahead of you with AK? Why not call? Why not raise more or push? What was your thinking here? With all those players in front, where you on a blind? that's why you were in early position post flop, right? What were your stack sized, what percentage of each person's stack was in the pot, etc?

I don't know if this would have Ended any differently with that flop. But, I still don't understand the logic of a 4.5xBB raise behind a 2xBB raise. What did you think he was raising with? (I'm asking.) Regardless of how it turned out. And why is the other guy just calling in as the cream filling to your little oreo raisefest? Did that strike you as strange?

I still don't know what the blinds were, but let's say they were 25/50 and you each had about 1500 chips still. I would have called with AK or decided that one or 2 of them have a pp lower than ak and I wanted to take a coinflip - and pushed to get heads up. (but if i called) With that flop I would have bet the pot and maybe they call maybe not. 2 pair isn't something i give any more value than 1 pair against a flush draw - because it's not any better if he hits the flush (to me... I understand you COULD make a full house, but if you're playing a MTT early to catch long odds like that you won't make it very far very often). The more players in the had the more likely someone is drawing to the suit, so I bet bigger when there's more preflop callers (maybe 2x pot). I'm NOT trying to get the drawer to come along for the ride, I'm trying to give him a good reason to fold. If you 'SUCKER' the drawing hand to stay with you in a MTT, then they'll hit 1 out of 3.5 - 4 times. ooops. you're out. Better to take the pot right there. Over a 3-5 hour tourney you don't want to win 3 out of 4 pots against the guy who can knock you out. You want to win 3 out of 3 and fold the 4th.

When he pushes I'm putting him on AK, AQ or trips. Since I beat 2 of those I'm calling.... HOWEVER, since he called a raise and a reraise in your actual hand I would put a lot higher odds on him slowplaying kk or aa. (he wasn't but that would certainly tick my 'what-the-fuck-o-meter'). and I might lay it down when he pushes. it would depend on my remaining stack. That's the problem with early in a MTT you have no idea and people range from wild ass crazy to crazy like a fox. In the end I probably would have lost all my chips there with 2 pair against the flush draw. But I'm still wondering why you raised to 4.5xBB with AK from the blind with a raise and call in front. That's not a great play. Either call or push. You either WANT TO SEE a flop cheap (call)... or you want the pot right now (push) and if you don't get the pot right now then you want to be heads up against Aq, aj or worst case a pocket pair.

I'll play AK cheap with a raiser in front early in an MTT, personally. And I'll push back into the raiser late. You played it OK. Just spend some quality time yourself thinking of how you're going to play AK in different situations - both tactically and strategically. Strategically, early in a MTT I'm more inclined to fold and live to fight in many situations. AK hitting 2 pair isn't one of them, but you got a miracle flop, THEN you got UNLIKELY ACTION post flop FROM A DRAWING HAND. More often than not this flop is going to miss you and you're going to have a make a very difficult decision sitting in first position staring at a table that was unafraid preflop (which would put one of them on a PP at least). Whatcha gonna do then? That's a much more likely scenario with AK on the blind. Call it, then play it carefully. Again, that's not what happened here. But it's the most likely scenario.

Aokrongly, are you suggesting here then that you push the unmade hand AK against the probable made (but beatable hand) a PP or AQ/AJ/KQ here. I like the thought process behind this by all means its very much the style of thinking/aggression i like and would try to play (putting others in the position to call for what is possibly a coin flip) but is it a recommendable play here or are you suggesting it as a thought process to consider when holding this hand in certain positions in certain circumstances?

Aokrongly, sorry should have supplied this inf. I was SB. Hand was very early in tourney sb 10 bb 20. Stacks all fairly even about 1,500. So my 4.5 was a90 raise to my sb 10. Table at this stage was loose with any old hand coming in.

Past experience for this regular sng shows that AA & KK normally play all in. Players with an Ax and small PP will call up to 10% of stack. Have seen AK AQ go all in quite regularly. 2 x BB I would expect to see suited connectors a couple of high cards.

Post flop and first to act I wanted to put up a steal bet as two scare cards appeared, ie I wanted to pretend I had the cards and get raised by someone with an A. I reasoned that no one would have suspected I held AK. Then I could take them hard.

Not sure I have quite figured out what to do next time round, other than hit the betting post flop harder. With the small bb & sb at this stage I think the multiples are fairly insignificant.

This is one of those hands that's gonna get all your chips once the flop comes. And my comments aren't about this hand to any great extent. Just general thoughts. Hands like this come up plenty and they drive you crazy thinking how could I have played it differently to win? The reality is you played it well and got a very unluckly situation. As long as you analyze it honestly and either decide:
1. you did something off and would do it differently in the future (then set that pattern and forget about the results this time)
2. you played it right and that's poker

Then you've done your job on this one. No need to tie you mind in knots over it. Over the long run you'll do great because you're committed to playing right. There's alot of mental toughness that comes with experience. But you're doing the right thing by analyzing every possible angle and not accepting things on their face.

(to answer the other question - at this point in the tourney I'm not pushing AK preflop, but later when players are more inclined to fold YES, and if the blinds/antes are 20% or more of my stack or more YES.) Again, however, one of the most underconsidered aspects of MTT's is knowing when NOT to be involved in a hand. Soupie is an expert on this, imo. STRATEGIC play vs TACTICAL play. But, the short answer is Yes, in many situations I would advocate a push here preflop, and in many situations I would advocate a fold. Generally, though, AK is a calling hand with a raise in front. You're going to have to get more information and some help on the flop to take the pot. This particular situation you ran into a gambler who hit. Bad luck.... I could go on and on here about how you NEED people to fold in MTT's to win, etc. But I think we've pounded this on enough, at least I have.

thanks. Was just interested in your general thought process here.