Nightmare with KK

Recent tourney $10 - 20 players on 2 tables.

1st hand and get dealt KdKh - Two players ahead with 2 x BB and 3 x BB raises - I raised to 8 BB. Got called.

Flop All diamonds A high so was on a draw for nut flush as well as second pair. Player before me raises 8BB so I called other played folded. Nothing on the turn. Player in front raised 6BB so flat called. Nothing on river he raised 4BB. I called and he showed an A.

Question: I hate going all in 1st hand on a tourney but I wish I had, also he was reducing his bets giving me the idea that he was drawing. Was I unlucky - seriously out played or could I have played this differently?

I'll take a stab at this...

1) You reraised preflop, but only called his bet on the flop showing weakness. Raising his bet on the flop may have been the better option. I would have raised on the flop then if he calls I'd probably fold KK to any bet on the turn with the A showing.

2)You say you thought he was on a draw, but he raised preflop and then bet out with an ace on the board. I would have assumed he had AK (or AQ, AJ, AT)with a preflop raise and bet on the flop.

3)He may have been afraid that you were drawing or slowplaying and thats why he decreased his bets.

I'm still a 'beginner' also, so take this with a grain of salt.

even first hand up
over the top
(do not be afraid to push KK/AA at any time even first up)

But All in on 1st hand gives a very low reward for a high risk and in a tourney all sorts of idiots at my level will go all in with A x. From the number of posts you have is this a tactic on more experienced tables?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hop_Gazza

But All in on 1st hand gives a very low reward for a high risk and in a tourney all sorts of idiots at my level will go all in with A x. From the number of posts you have is this a tactic on more experienced tables?

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Yeah, I've also noticed that in low buy-in MTT's (and SnG's) that people will push first hand with almost anything. Ax, small pocket pairs, KQ, QJ.

I still think your mistake was calling rather than raising on the flop, then you could have folded on the turn if your hand did not improve and you put your man on an A when he bets out at you.

I would say all in pre flop. How is it low reward for high risk? The best thing that can happen in a tourney is a double up (high reward) and KK is the second best hand (low risk). Sounds like scared money to me.

With KK you want to get a caller but since this is first hand someone is gonna take you for an all in fish and call you. Its a good double up oppertunuity.

Even if someone does call you with Ax you are still clear favoutive. If they suckout then good luck to them.

The way you played it was ok aswell I think. Considering his decreasing bets. Raise the flop though and you probably take it there and then cos he puts you on a flush.

Go all in preflop and try to take it down right there. If they call you are still in excellent shape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hop_Gazza

idiots at my level will go all in with A x

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That is what you want.

Thanks for the replies - I think Thirteen hits the point on my post flop action. I should have implied the flush and saved the bet on the river. On the other responses having seen 3 or 4 all ins on the 1st hand means that KK falls to 2 pair all too frequently. All in only works at this level if you are confident that there will be only 1 caller otherwise it is a complete lottery.

I hope to move my game out of this level ASAP!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hop_Gazza

Thanks for the replies - I think Thirteen hits the point on my post flop action. I should have implied the flush and saved the bet on the river. On the other responses having seen 3 or 4 all ins on the 1st hand means that KK falls to 2 pair all too frequently. All in only works at this level if you are confident that there will be only 1 caller otherwise it is a complete lottery.

I hope to move my game out of this level ASAP!

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I really must disagree. How much of a hand do you want before you are confident of putting your chips in the middle? KK is the second best hand you can get. All you can do as a poker player is get your chips in while you are ahead, if you're not prepared to do that then you're going nowhere.

And btw I'm playing the same levels.

i dont have the hand history.
This morning i pushed all in on the first hand with AA.
*takes deep breath* i got SIX callers on a nine handed table.
only real hand was pair 6s we both nailed sets on the flop but i had 1500x6 (10500chips) after hand one.
Definatly won.
(ill post this in tales of poker when absolute gets round to my histories, in a bout 3 weeks i bet)
so yes go all in even with crappy old KK!

Think about it. 80% chance to win with KK against a lesser PP HU. So you win X $.
If you get 6 other callers for your AI then you are still favored to win against any random hand. So you win 6X 34% of the time and lose X the other 66% of the time. Over 100 trys that works out to winning 204X and losing 66X. That’s +EV.

I don't disagree with the maths and all in philosophy but in a table tourney my plan is to survive until I am in the money.
EricE, I know your maths above was for 6 callers but surviving 34% of the time is not going to work. I agree on a cash table all in is the way to go.

Sorry to be a noob and challenge your answers but it is the only way I can learn and debate these issues. Thank you all for taking time to answer me.

Always play within your bankroll. It really sounds to me like you're playing with scared money and you don't wan't to play the hand as aggressivly as it should be played because you don't want to bust out.

A plan to merely survive til ITM is a recipe for disaster. The money is top heavy, so to get a good return, you have to play for first. I am all for not taking unnecessary risks at a tournament, but when you get the opportunity, you have to play aggressive and not be afraid of busting out early. KK first hand with 2 raises in front of you is about as good of an opportunity as you are going to get ... you go all-in and either take down the pot for a modest increase, or have an excellent chance to double or triple up. If you have 3x the chips of anyone else after 1 hand, you are sitting pretty, almost guaranteed a money finish with smart play, and a huge favorite for 1st or 2nd. So you get busted about 1/4 times. That's poker ... if you are afraid of losing, you will never win because unless you have the ever lovin nuts with no possible draw to beat you, there is always a chance of losing that hand. Winning a tournament is all about pushing big edges for all they are worth with no fear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xanadu

A plan to merely survive til ITM is a recipe for disaster. The money is top heavy, so to get a good return, you have to play for first. I am all for not taking unnecessary risks at a tournament, but when you get the opportunity, you have to play aggressive and not be afraid of busting out early. KK first hand with 2 raises in front of you is about as good of an opportunity as you are going to get ... you go all-in and either take down the pot for a modest increase, or have an excellent chance to double or triple up. If you have 3x the chips of anyone else after 1 hand, you are sitting pretty, almost guaranteed a money finish with smart play, and a huge favorite for 1st or 2nd. So you get busted about 1/4 times. That's poker ... if you are afraid of losing, you will never win because unless you have the ever lovin nuts with no possible draw to beat you, there is always a chance of losing that hand. Winning a tournament is all about pushing big edges for all they are worth with no fear.

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Quoted for truth.

In tourney at moment - got dealt AA utg. So thought about what you guys said and went all in expecting just the blinds. Got called by 22 & A6 - that sorted my chip stack out nicely - thanks.

cool, and guess what if you have KK in that spot you're going to triple up 58% of the time. 99% of those times you will become tournament chipleader (if this were the first hand).

You are almost 3:1 versus the ragged ace. You Love Those Calls. Love Them!

Love it even more when I get 2 people calling my all-in KK. Most of the time they both have an ace, further reducing the chance of an Ace dropping on the board.

AI in this sitation ( a raise and reraise) is not a bad idea, you will probably get one caller.

Post flop I do not like your play - he raised preflop and raised on the flop, I do not think he was drawing, Ax is the logical guess here.
You had 11 outs, so from pot odds point of view you were correct to call each bet, however from a tournament point of view you commited a lot of chips early on a draw, which I dont like to do.

I would seriously consider folding on the flop, you are probably behind, pick a better spot later on to get chips.

The other alternative is to push on the flop, giving your opponent a tough choice, and giving you a lot of outs even if he does call