Facing a reraise...

Here's a big leak in my game:

It depends on the situation but I often don't know what to do when I'm facing a reraise and I often make the wrong decision.

I play against people who don't seem to understand the concept/importance of raising preflop so they limp almost everything (they all seem to think that it's better to limp in there with pocket aces and face as many player as possible on the flop). That often leaves me having absolutely no read on my opponents when the flop comes.

So as an example, I'm against this guy (me and him limped in preflop) and flop comes 2, 3, 8 rainbow. I'm holding TPTK so I feel I'm in the lead and I bet 2$, he goes all-in for 14$. So I'm thinking that he was playing super loose lately, stealing pots and he might have sensed I was trying to bluff him here so I call and he flips pocket 2s. Should I have folded? What's to take into consideration that I might have forgotten? Does it depends on your bankroll/his bankroll? Did I trust my intuition too much (having somehow no read here)?

So what i'm asking is: Are there any rule of thumb to determine if you should fold, call, push in any given situation. I'm sure some of the most experienced player can help me with this.

Thanks

But do you expect him to raise pocket 2's pre flop?

If you think the guy was playing super loose and have seen him make plays like that which are bluffs...maybe you made the right move by not folding. But a set is the hardest thing to detect on any given flop. Against a good player or tight player, you should be ready to lay down TPTK on the flop regardless if the flop is complete rags or well coordinated to a big re raise. If some maniac re raises your TPTK 3 or 4 times, then its time to push and take his stack because he's bluffing you broke.

I would feel really dodgy AIing TPTK even to a really loose player. Its just not that strong. Wait 'till you have a stronger hand then prompt him to AI you an bust his ass.

If there were simple rules that could decide what to do when people would me making bots and raking the cash in.

Game is not like that.

Not much you can do in that exact example, but fold. In a cash game, unless you have a great read on a maniac, not many players are going to be pushing AI w/ TPTK unless there is some scary coordinated board and they want to take the pot right there. If you had A8s and flop gave you TPTK and nut flush draw, that call may very well be correct.

But, you said you can never put them on a hand because they limp- well you can control the pot and get control of the hand by raising preflop. And you can buy information on the flop by betting and re-raising your opponents. You are not powerless. Calling stations are wonderfulf due to the fact that for every time they suck out on you you will make back that money and more when you hit a huge hand b/c they will keep up their calling ways.

OK, lesson learned: regardless of the type of player, I have to fold to an all-in with my TPTK unless I got enough outs to improve. Is that correct? I guess I still have to learn to be more patient...but damn sometime it's just so tempting you know. Discipline is key I guess!

Oops, you're looking at it all wrong. This is why reading the player, betting patterns, and general play styles are important to pay attention to.

If you have A8 and the flop is 832, and the rock of gibralter moves all-in, that's a clear fold most of the time.

same situation: Loose fish goes all-in, i'm probably calling.

you're ability to win the most and lose the minimum with 1 pair in hold'em is a critical skill.

In that situation I fold every time. I might call in a rare instance if I have a read on the guy that he does go AI with a piece of the flop. I recently played with a guy that would go AI on the flop every time he hit a piece of it. I mean, even middle pair. On him I would be willing to call an AI with just TPGK. I never got the chance but I would have if it had come up. My point is, you don’t make those calls without a read. Fold it all day long.

First off. He shouldn't raise with 22, not even in LP. Second, why were you playing a hand like A8?

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Originally Posted by edudlive

First off. He shouldn't raise with 22, not even in LP. Second, why were you playing a hand like A8?

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'Cause I taught A8 was enough playable in a 6-max game. Tell me if that's wrong.

The way I saw it in that particular example is that the only hands that beat me then (at the flop) were 2 pairs or trips. Now, who limps 23, 28 or 38? Pretty much no one I guessed so that leaves pocket 2, 3 or 8 that could beat me. I had an 8 so it was unlikely that he had the two other ones. So really, pocket 2 or 3 were my only concern. I perhaps should have put him on one of those since he pushed all-in but like I said he was playing really loose lately, so I took my chance and lost. Correct me if my logic is wrong, I'm here to learn anyway :)

OT, I appologize in advance for the derail.

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Originally Posted by jmontis

you're ability to win the most and lose the minimum with 1 pair in hold'em is a critical skill.

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I was thinking about this the other day during my commute. Anyone have and statistics on what hands win in a standard 10 max ring game?

Eg
55% of hands are won by one pair
24% are won by two pair
etc... (those are wrong btw, I have no factual data what so ever)

Anyone have any stats like that?

I was thinking that one pair wins more than 50% of hands, assuming you include the hands winning to folds.

I play Ax suited or ATo or better in 6 max with position. It's hard to win in 6 max without seeing >30% of flops, i'd say. You have to be way more aggressive than you do in full ring. A lot of people might disagree, but A8 is not a bad hand in LP shothanded.

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Originally Posted by OopsYouLost

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Originally Posted by edudlive

First off. He shouldn't raise with 22, not even in LP. Second, why were you playing a hand like A8?

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'Cause I taught A8 was enough playable in a 6-max game. Tell me if that's wrong.

The way I saw it in that particular example is that the only hands that beat me then (at the flop) were 2 pairs or trips. Now, who limps 23, 28 or 38? Pretty much no one I guessed so that leaves pocket 2, 3 or 8 that could beat me. I had an 8 so it was unlikely that he had the two other ones. So really, pocket 2 or 3 were my only concern. I perhaps should have put him on one of those since he pushed all-in but like I said he was playing really loose lately, so I took my chance and lost. Correct me if my logic is wrong, I'm here to learn anyway :)

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I never play anything below AJo (AT if I can limp and push them out) and I limp any Ax suited (so if your A8 was suited, I apologize), but I play 10NL..so its really fishy so tight poker wins the $$$$

Never call for your whole stack with TPTK :P...unless you're playing a maniac like Ripptyde :lol:

my general rule of thumb is not to call an all-in with just top pair/top kicker unless I have a really good feel that the guy is pulling a move and I have outs to improve. In tournament play I might be more willing to call if the guy is shortstacked and I don't sense he's got a huge overpair. in a ring? not worth it. there are plenty of other opportunities.

one thing to remember, I believe that this is somewhat standard play for a flopped set. In tournament play you might slow play or smooth call that $2 raise on the flop. I believe it is more common for a flopped set on low pocket pairs to reraise instantly. In tournaments, you want to set the trap and bust the guy and/or double yourself up on the river, as long as there's not a scary draw.

In a ring, I'm more inclined to want to get paid for every card.

Is this an example of where we need that level two/three thinking?
What does my opponent have/what does my opponent think i have.
Your bet here looks like you have tpgk. Thats what he sees (hopefully anyway) thus when he pushes over the top of you it could mean two/three things.
1. hes bluffing (unlikely at lower levels where i (you too?) play) people simply dont bluff or when they do its readable.
2.He has a hand that beats your tpgk and has pushed hoping you call too attached to your top pair. (as they say. Never bet the ranch on top pair)
3.He has a draw to the nuts and enough outs to make it worth it (or in a fishes case he just has outs to the best hand probably not enough odds though)

Then i'd consider what he might have called,but not rasied with preflop.
A pp is a very good probablilty. If your heads up then he should have raised to protect his hand. An over pair is another possibility eg 9s but again maybe a raise would be expected.
Quite simply if someone goes over the top of you stop. think. think of the hands that may beat your hand. consider the opponenst style (tight,manaic) make a decision.Unless you have the nuts at that moment or a strong (better than TPTK) hand you have to fold and show respect. DOnt worry about being pushed around. Hopefully he'll do that when you have the nuts and get busted.
Here you have to consider what your opps play suggests about his hand. It wasnt good enough to raise but post flop its good enough to be all in. That looks like set/two pair/overpair imo.