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I have noticed this recently.
I'll be cruising along in a tourney, little above average stack, maybe half way through the thing. Looking good, and then suddenly get caught up in a moderately strong hand, and when i get repeatedly called, I push harder, and the villain has me beat. I lose half my stack and wonder why I didnt believe he "had It" - whatever hand "it" was I thought he was bluffing or representing.
I need to find a way to see this for what it is, but not become weak/passive either.
Hey bro...I hear ya. That's one of my leaks that I've identified in my game.
How I've overcome it (and yes, I'm still working on it) is by just going back to straight up poker -- no position playing, no nothing. Just playing tight and disciplined.
I actually find that my reads get better, so that when I do want to play position and steal a blind or two, I don't get wreckless, get trapped, then get into, "He's bluffing" mode.
I've already noticed positive results.
I don't think "not playing position poker" is the correct thing. That would be a poor decision.
You just have to look at yourself and get some control. Know when you are beat.
Ive encountered a similar problem too. My advice would be that if you have any sense at all that your hand may not be the best (your getting check raised etc) when its obvious you have top pair or similar then put that top pair down.
Yeah it hurts but like you have said its better than pushing it and getting beat. There are always (nearly always! :P ) better oppertunities for you to push when you KNOW you have the best hand
Tourney play is about survival.
I did it at a final table last week. I got there through tight play and then i got pocket 9s and someone went all in front of me. Thinking about the 4hrs previous i wud have folded and waited for a better oppertunity (i had a decent enough stack to wait) but i was a little rash and pushed. He turned over pocket 10s and i was out. Yeah it was a bit of a beat but if i just folded and waited for a better oppertunity i might have done better than i did.
You dont always win tourneys, especially early on but you can certainly lose them.
Oh yeah and dont worry about looking weak. If some one thinks they can bet you off a hand theyll make the mistake of trying to do it more often than they should.
This is something that I struggle with also. Folding a good hand to pressure is a hard thing to do…but my own history shows that when I go through with a hand after getting re-raised after a bet or raise I usually lose. I don’t lose all the time but say 70-80% of the time. That means that pushing through those situations is a losing proposition.
It is a very rare event when you have the absolute nuts and can be confident in pushing. Which means that the art of poker is knowing when to push it through and when not to. <shrug> I don’t have a solution, I just know that my inclination is to fold them now.
Take a look at this hand dsaxton played. This is what I am talking about. If I make that call, I am an idiot for doing so. Dsaxton is one of the top players here. I am frustrated with knowing when to make these calls and how to see weakness like this.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=14898
I could not agree more.
This is one of my major leaks -- not dropping my hands after I think I'm beaten. And ironically, like you mentioned, 80% of the time, when I think they're just trying to push me off of a stack, they turn over a higher hand and I lose.
I'm a pretty aggressive player, so it's hard for me to consistently correct it. But I am working on it, and I am getting better at plugging that leak.
Good posts all.
I think of all the holes to have in your game, the WORST one is to be a calling post. This sends you home, fast. You have to totally shake the notion that poker is just a game of numbers and luck, and realize that it's a game of people first and foremost (at the highest levels, anyway) then luck, then numbers.
This is why I put most of my emphasis in developing a table persona rather than strictly betting the numbers.
I ALWAYS work a bluff early into the game and I always show it. This gets into peoples minds and causes them to call you out when you have strong hands. If I can play through a hand bluffing and get called on it, if it doesn't cost me too much to do it, it's a price i'll gladly pay to poison the minds of my opponents into thinking i'm a pot thief.
Poker is like a road rally and you are the vehicle. You have to be able to switch gears at the various twists and turns or else you will crash and burn. Conversely, when you hit a straight away, you need to know when to floor it and run like a motherfucker.
My grandfather who was a very successful no limit draw poker player (used to be a day when that was the only kind of poker people played :dance: ) told me a few things about playing cards and card players.
Free advice, take it at what you paid for it, but it's served me well and has made me lots of money.
There are two types of card players.
People who play cards and people who play people.
Winning at poker is a helluva lot more than just playing tight. You have to mix it up, or else no one will ever bet into you when you go. Sure, you might take down a small pot or snatch a few blinds, but what a way to waste a nut flush or a boat than to have it pay off as a couple of blinds or limp ins.
I want the OTHER guy to think HE has the best hand. This is where I must take it upon myself to cultivate what the other guy thinks of my playing. Don't let him make up his own mind about what kind of player you are... Make up his mind for him, and make sure he thinks wrong.
You've got to mix up your play, and you've got to understand that other players are doing the same.
Just because I checked doesn't mean my hand is weak. Just because I re-raised you doesn't mean I have shit.
This is where your table persona equates to chips.
Guys who have the same problem you do wind up calling my A/I on the raggy river card thinking i'm trying to steal the pot since I checked all the way through.
OOPS! Turns out I had a nut flush... Thanks for playing, reload and come back again.
When you examine the great players, one thing they all have in common is that they play through A LOT of hands and they're all gamblers at heart. Poker to them is just as much about chip strategy and gambling as it is about the actual cards you have.
Mahatma/Spirit Rock/Prefontaine/Prahlad Friedman makes a small fortune playing online poker because (amongst a number of different reasons) he has the intestinal fortitude to wager what amounts to a years wages for a working man on a total gamble. He reads into people and can tell you if they have the balls to call him, or not. And pot after pot they flake off to his monster bets, and he gathers up their chips.
And over enough hands, they are SURE he is bluffing and by the time they work up the nuts to call him, OOPS! His game shifted gears 15 hands ago... Turns out he had the nuts all along; Thanks for playing, reload and come back again.
Man, i'm really sorry I carried on like that, but it's a philosophy of the game that I feel very strongly about. I use it to win, and as best I can tell, it's a common trait amongst most all winning players.
It's just as much about the opponent as it is the cards.
Very, very good point.Quote:
If some one thinks they can bet you off a hand theyll make the mistake of trying to do it more often than they should.
Overall, though, it can be a winning strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by fjuanl
For the one $1000 pot you lose when someone calls you straight through, a properly applied aggressive style makes you more than that over time.
it just takes time to be able to separate the feeling of "i really don't want to lose this hand" from the feeling of "i think i have this hand won". i think early on you will try to convince yourself you have a hand won just because you really wish you did, you're mad your hand just got counterfitted when the turn came, etc, and will do your best to ignore your better common sense and convince yourself this hand is yours, when deep down you know its not a read of a bluff but just you being mad about not having the best hand.
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by BiloxiMS
One last thing I didn't mention in my post above.
If I were to pick one single dynamic in the game of poker that really separates the good players from the great players, it isn't knowing when to play. Hell, EVERYONE knows when to play.
It's knowing when to toss.
It's having half of your stack tied up in a pot and being able to cleanly lay the hand off if you know you aren't going to win, and totally forget about it the next hand and play as if the game had just begun.
We all watch the monsters at the big online NL tables play. The big 'heros' at Stars- twin-caracas, xxTheJokerxx, H@££INGGOL- these guys have the ability to sink thousands of real American dollars into a single pot and lay it off without a second thought if they think they're holding a dog.
They have the fortitude to go tens of thousands of dollars down, knowing that they will be back up again.
A friend of mine asked me what is the difference between a compulsive gambler and a winning player.
As best I could figure, all winning players are compulsive gamblers but not all compulsive gamblers are winning players.
What separates one from the other is the winning player will lose money and reload knowing that he will be back up again, whereas the compulsive gambler will lose money and reload hoping to get back up again.