The value of PFR - pocket 9's

This forum has told me to raise more preflop and play position better and I'm working on both :)
In this hand I had played pretty tight for a while and my recent showdowns would have the table believe that I raised big pairs and AK only. Feel free to comment my play or the oponents play.

Read on player UTG+2: Played well, but really liked to call PFR with suited trash to crack high pairs. He suffered a bad beat against my QQ earlier with 75s hitting two pair on the flop (753), getting me all in, but then loosing when the board paired 3's on the river. So he was eager to get even.

0.25/0.5$ NL 10 player
Dealt to Borax in BB
:9c::9s:
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OpeningBetRound
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SB: Posts small blind 0.25
Borax: Posts big blind 0.50
X: Waiting for big blind
UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
UTG+2: Calls for 0.50
MP1: Folds
MP2: Folds
CO: Folds
Button : Calls for 0.50
SB: Calls for 0.25
Borax: Bets 2.00
UTG+2: Calls for 2.00
Button : Calls for 2.00
SB: Folds
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Flop
:7s::th::8c:
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Borax: Bets 5.00
UTG+2: Calls for 5.00
Button : Folds
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Turn
:8d:
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Borax: Bets 5.00
UTG+2: Raises for 10.00
Borax: Calls for 5.00
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River
:9h:
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Borax: Bets 25.00
UTG+2: Raises for 50.00
Borax: Went all-in 47.20
UTG+2: Went all-in 0.75
Borax: Receives returned betting money 21.45
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Showdown
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Borax
:9h::9c::9s::8c::8d: - Fullhouse
UTG+2
:8c::8d::8s::th::9h: - Three of a Kind
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Result
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Borax Showed Cards :9c::9s: (Winning) 136.50
UTG+2 Showed Cards :8s::4s:
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After the hand UTG+2 said: You owe that to your preflop raise - I put you on a high pair! ....and that is the point, isn't it :wink:


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Wow homeboy plays 84s UTG+2. Its one thing to play junk when you have implied odds, its another thing to play it out of position with no odds whatsoever.

Anyway, I wouldn't put in moves like that from the BB, you caught a miracle two outer to his miracle five outer otherwise your position would have forced you to give up the hand.

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Hubris1 wrote: you caught a miracle two outer to his miracle five outer otherwise your position would have forced you to give up the hand.

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I had ten outs inlcuding the open ended straight draw, since I was pretty sure a straight would win me the hand. If I didn't hit any of my outs I aggree that I would have to give up the hand. Also if his raise had been big on the turn, I would probably have folded. I read him for 8x after the turn, given his playing style. I also new he had me on a big pair and that I probably would take his stack if I hit. Therefor I felt the implied odds with ten outs was more than enough to call the turn miniraise.

Rilla usually say: "Don't miniraise! "
I am beginning to see why that is good advice.


What about my flop bet? Too small?

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Originally Posted by Borax

After the hand UTG+2 said: You owe that to your preflop raise - I put you on a high pair!

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I don't think it will take much deception to de-stack this opponent. His comments just emphasize how badly he played the hand. He put you on a high pocket pair and then proceeded to call your potsized flop bet with 2 outs.

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Originally Posted by Hubris1

you caught a miracle two outer to his miracle five outer otherwise your position would have forced you to give up the hand.

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Straights don't beat trips?

-'rilla

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hubris1

you caught a miracle two outer to his miracle five outer otherwise your position would have forced you to give up the hand.

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Straights don't beat trips?

-'rilla

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Bloops. That was mr. Sam Adams talking. Thank you Sam. I agree with Sam that this is wacky move from the BB preflop however.

ill raise from late, certainly not blinds.

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journey075 wrote:
ill raise from late, certainly not blinds.

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Why not? Please explain.
There is no raise and I am last to act after three limpers. So why just check and hope for a set when I can take the initiative in the hand and reduce the number of players even more, or even take the pot down directly? In fact this seems like a very good spot to raise from to me :?

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Originally Posted by Borax

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journey075 wrote:
ill raise from late, certainly not blinds.

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Why not? Please explain.
There is no raise and I am last to act after three limpers. So why just check and hope for a set when I can take the initiative in the hand and reduce the number of players even more, or even take the pot down directly? In fact this seems like a very good spot to raise from to me :?

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if you raise you have to act first and your pos absolutely sucks. chances of overcards flopping are around 80% so how will you act when that happens? what overs are you willing to bet into w/o seeing your opps action? its an extremely tricky spot.


on the other hand, you could limp to set and have a nice huge mulitway pot.


tricky decisions < limp to set

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Originally Posted by Borax

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journey075 wrote:
ill raise from late, certainly not blinds.

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Why not? Please explain.
There is no raise and I am last to act after three limpers. So why just check and hope for a set when I can take the initiative in the hand and reduce the number of players even more, or even take the pot down directly? In fact this seems like a very good spot to raise from to me :?

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Personally, I like the pfr. I always try to err on the side of aggro play, which probably explains my variance. But I definitely think it's the best way to consistently win cash.

I think if you don't raise, you give up your 9's too easily. If you don't raise, you're basically throwing the hand away unless you hit a set. If you do hit a set, there's a good chance that you won't win much money. You'll make a small pot sized bet, get one caller (the rest fold their garbage hands) and then your one caller folds on the turn to another pot sized bet. It just happens so often.

I'm not sure about your bet on the turn though, cause you're the one on the draw. Another $5 isn't going to get this guy to fold. I'd either bet deep or check. I don't know what that guy calls with, obviously he calls with middle pairs, so maybe you thought you had the best hand.

I probably would have checked to him. He goes all in. I lose the hand. So it worked out for you.

Just my humble opinion.

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journey wrote: tricky decisions < limp to set

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ok - thanks, I see your point.

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Checkways wrote: I'm not sure about your bet on the turn though, cause you're the one on the draw. Another $5 isn't going to get this guy to fold. I'd either bet deep or check. I don't know what that guy calls with, obviously he calls with middle pairs, so maybe you thought you had the best hand.

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Sounds reasonable. I should probably have checked here. The reason for my bet at the time, was to test if he held an 8. With his miniraise I was almost sure. A big bet was not an option, since I really suspected three 8's. I wanted to see the river card as cheap as possible to maybe break him and a check would probably have been good. Any big bet or a push from him would have folded me.

I found an interesting article on playing from the blinds. Here it is:
http://www.beatingpoker.com/db/article.asp?ID=340

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Originally Posted by Borax

I found an interesting article on playing from the blinds. Here it is:
http://www.beatingpoker.com/db/article.asp?ID=340

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thats for limit poker :wink:. blind defense plays a big part in those games while its almost non existant in NL.

NL is all about position. id much rather be in LP w/ crap than have a decent hand in EP.

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Originally Posted by Borax

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Hubris1 wrote: you caught a miracle two outer to his miracle five outer otherwise your position would have forced you to give up the hand.

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I had ten outs inlcuding the open ended straight draw, since I was pretty sure a straight would win me the hand. If I didn't hit any of my outs I aggree that I would have to give up the hand. Also if his raise had been big on the turn, I would probably have folded. I read him for 8x after the turn, given his playing style. I also new he had me on a big pair and that I probably would take his stack if I hit. Therefor I felt the implied odds with ten outs was more than enough to call the turn miniraise.

Rilla usually say: "Don't miniraise! "
I am beginning to see why that is good advice.

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agreed, he hit his 3 8's on the turn and only minraised your raised .. of course your going to call, and he gave you a cheap card to beat him.

if he would have dropped the hammer, i think you woulda and shoulda folded.


minraising is only inviting people to draw out on you

[/quote]
minraising is only inviting people to draw out on you[/quote]

Yeah, although miniraising is fun to do for value. It's a different way of slowplaying. Can be dangerous though.

I only mini raise with the nuts or close to the nuts with a whole bunch of players in the pot. That way they ALL call me because the first guy calls and gives everyone good odds to draw dead (but they don't know that)

usually with a lower pocket pair (nines are the upper end of that) limping can be more useful, often when you hit your set you can take most of their money if they hit with their high cards

i agree with the positional argument, while there were many limpers and you were last to act preflop, after the cards are dealt you act at best second and unless you get all of the players outside of the blinds to fold you are in a tricky situation if overs come

often i think of lower pocket pairs as drawing hands, most of the time you wont take down the pot with the lower ones at least, hit your set on the flop take their money, dont hit fold

playing in a later position would allow you to appear strong preflop and not diminish that on the flop if you had to check

I like raising 99-jj cause either the flop comes rags, which makes my hand pretty strong, i hit trips which makes my hand very strong, or the flop comes with overcards which i can represent.

with 9s overs will flop 79% of the time, i believe
and i feel that most of the people who will be calling your raise will be holding at least one over

yes, they probably will hold at least one over. so, you have 99, flop comes queen high, what are the odds he has it? what about J high? Ten high? i think for sure not very good, if for no reason other than, there are 5 cards higher than a 9. if one does come, there are 12 possible misses, and only 6 possible hits. If they miss you can almost be assured of a fold - and you're ahead anyway. If they hit, its possible they'll fold anyway. 2/3 of the time, you win, 1/3, they make a better pair than yours. i'll take that.

I love raising Middle pockets, but not the from the big blind. You are lucky your opponents suck. I'd just see the free cards next time.

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Originally Posted by doggz

I love raising Middle pockets, but not the from the big blind. You are lucky your opponents suck. I'd just see the free cards next time.

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agreed, jacking up the pot in the blinds is not going to accomplish anything but giving people the chance to come back over the top of you and you have a really tough decision .. with pocket pairs lower then T 's i like to limp and keep as much dead money from my opponents in as possible.