questions about loose aggressive play

I noticed other FTRers had a lot of success with loose aggresive play at the higher stakes, so I had some questions about it.

1. What exactly constitutes loose aggressive play? Is it confined to raising with connected suitors and then continuation betting with them no matter what you get?

2. Why does it work so well? What types of opponents does it work best on?

3. Is there some article on the site that describes how to play it well (a how-to guide of sorts)?

4. How should start out learning it? Where would be the best place to practice loose-aggresive play? Penny tables a good idea? (and no I dont want more practice playing tight aggresive, I've done plenty of that, I think I have it down).

I'm just as interested in the WHY as I am in the WHAT...

the prefix in the name of the style is for preflop. LAG and TAG play the same postflop. LAG plays loose preflop, TAG plays tight preflop. thats all there is to it. the reason LAG works good is because rags and suited connectors always have the possibility to destack multiple players even when they have aces. its almost impossible for there to truly be a drawless flop, so the correct suited connector will almost always have a draw on every board. usually when they hit its payday because no one expects you to be playing that hand when they are holding aces, they expect you to be holding queens, not 67s. as for the style it plays best against, someone posted a wheel on this forum that has what styles play best against what styles.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=12761

LAg is supposed to be good against TAg

ok first of all, the statement that LAG and TAG play the same postflop is absolutely false. TAG's are smart enough to make laydowns postflop when they are clearly beaten. LAG's may or may not. there are maniac LAG's and there are disciplined shark LAG's, and the two are extremely different. a maniac LAG will bet and raise his bottom pair from early position, whereas a disciplined shark LAG may or may not depending on his reads. a TAG will almost never bet out his bottom pair in EP, except for information.

secondly, citing the "Style Wheel" post is totally meaningless, especially considering that if you read the whole thread, the entire concept of the Wheel is debunked therein.

thirdly, if you are not a consistently winning player, then i hardly think that LAG is where you want to be going right now. you need to get a mastery of the TAG approach, philosophy, and discipline before branching out into more creative schools of play. LAG is not going to get you anywhere but in deep shit at the lowest stakes of poker.

yes, you may see a maniac LAG kicking ass for 1-2 sessions but in the long run they lose and they lose BIGTIME. trust me, i loan money to one on a weekly basis. a disciplined shark LAG style is only going to be effective at higher stakes where tight players abound.

ChezJ

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Originally Posted by ChezJ

ok first of all, the statement that LAG and TAG play the same postflop is absolutely false. TAG's are smart enough to make laydowns postflop when they are clearly beaten. LAG's may or may not. there are maniac LAG's and there are disciplined shark LAG's, and the two are extremely different.

secondly, citing the "Style Wheel" post is totally meaningless, especially considering that if you read the whole thread, the entire concept of the Wheel is debunked therein.

thirdly, if you are not a consistently winning player, then i hardly think that LAG is where you want to be going right now. you need to get a mastery of the TAG approach, philosophy, and discipline before branching out into more creative schools of play. LAG is not going to get you anywhere but in deep shit at the lowest stakes of poker.

yes, you may see a maniac LAG kicking ass for 1-2 sessions but in the long run they lose and they lose BIGTIME. trust me, i loan money to one on a weekly basis. a disciplined shark LAG style is only going to be effective at higher stakes where tight players abound.

ChezJ

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thats not completely true.. i find a ton of TAG's at NL 50 on party

and playing LAG against them works really well


but you are right, it takes alot of discipline, which i dont fully have down yet..

the important part of playing LAG is getting really good at hand reading. you cant destack someone unless you know you can beat their hand, and know their hand is good enough that they wont lay it down.

i agree with element on the point that playing LAG is really about playing the player and playing your position. what your cards are is less important if your reads are strong.

another part of it is playing so many hands and stealing so many pots that when you legitimately flop a monster, the other plays give you no credit whatsoever and call you down on your giant bets.

focusing on the technicalities of what defines "loose" vs "tight" in terms of starting hands is really besides the point.

ChezJ

Spino -

The change from TAGG to LAGG is not instant. You don't just sit down and say I'm going to practice playing Laggy today. The same as you didn't initially sit down at your first table and know how to play Tight. You had to learn Tight, and you'll have to learn Lagg too.

The good Lagg player beats the Tagg player because he has more bullets in his arsenal. The Tagg player is playing a limited number of hands, while the Lagg is playing these hands plus a slew of other ones.

But the extra hands aren't just add-ons. You'll have to play BETTER. More aware of postition and stack sizes and the people in the pot.

I've only been playing for 8 months, and learning. I didn't play EV+ until April. This is what I'm doing right now. Expanding what hands I'll play and how I'll play it. Pay the most attention to what doesn't work, and stop doing that. And notice what does work, from what position and with what kind of board, etc.

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Originally Posted by EasyT

The change from TAGG to LAGG is not instant. You don't just sit down and say I'm going to practice playing Laggy today. The same as you didn't initially sit down at your first table and know how to play Tight. You had to learn Tight, and you'll have to learn Lagg too.

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not entirely true. i can play at either NL 100 or NL 50 within my bankroll .. i kept watching these asian players on the world poker tour playing complete crap and just laying waste to the tags at the table.. i wanted to learn that.

so i played at NL 25 playing every connector card, unsuited or suited, up to 2 and 3 gappers, playing for sets with small pocket pairs.

i was draining lots and lots of money, i was playing these cards out of position against a raise and a reraise and kept draining money.

i lost maybe 200$ at the NL25 tables before i started catching and made that back in a couple days, and moved up to NL 50 to give it a try with great success.


the most important part of learning the LAG style is to learn your opponents. you have to know the hands they play.. how much they raise for those hands, and go from there. read them for a hand and take them on with garbage in position, and compare the flop to your hand and what it does to your opponents range of hands, if you have the better hand, stuff an all in back at him.

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Originally Posted by Element187

not entirely true. i can play at either NL 100 or NL 50 within my bankroll .. i kept watching these asian players on the world poker tour playing complete crap and just laying waste to the tags at the table.. i wanted to learn that.

so i played at NL 25 playing every connector card, unsuited or suited, up to 2 and 3 gappers, playing for sets with small pocket pairs.

i was draining lots and lots of money, i was playing these cards out of position against a raise and a reraise and kept draining money.

i lost maybe 200$ at the NL25 tables before i started catching and made that back in a couple days, and moved up to NL 50 to give it a try with great success.


the most important part of learning the LAG style is to learn your opponents. you have to know the hands they play.. how much they raise for those hands, and go from there. read them for a hand and take them on with garbage in position, and compare the flop to your hand and what it does to your opponents range of hands, if you have the better hand, stuff an all in back at him.

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Great post. This mirrors what I want to do once I decide I'm ready to move away from short stack play (likely the end of the summer), and likewise, is what I'd recommend for someone wanting to learn. I'm curious about a few things:

- How do your winnings with big hands compare to your winnings with hidden hands?

- How often do you raise your draws on the flop? Does calling raises and calling with pot odds make a big part of your play, or is it mostly doing the raising yourself (i.e. raising preflop w/ suited connectors if it's limped or calling a preflop raise and then raising or reraising if a draw presents itself)? Is drawing/bluffing out your opponent a significantly bigger part of your play here than catching a hand on the flop?

At the low stakes, I cannot believe that being a loose aggressive winning player is possible. Why? Because there's that stupid type of player that just STUPIFIES the loose aggressive: the calling station. And you'll find a lot more of those down at the lower limits than up in the higher ones. I wouldn't recommend trying it out on the penny tables.

A key component of the loose aggressive style working is having your opponents pay attention to what you have, or to what they think you have. If all they're doing is looking at their own cards, this ain't gonna work. Back when I was embroiled in LAG, I had some idiot call with a flush on a two paired board: JJ665 . I knew he had a flush, and that if he was smart, he'd fold. But he didn't; you can't play loose aggressive against this junk.

Long term, I think the loose aggressive playing style just eats too much of your energy to be as effective as a tight, aggressive playing style, mostly because with the latter style, you can multitable much more effectively.

But hey; if it works, it works. Just make sure you keep looking at the long term.

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Originally Posted by ensign_lee

At the low stakes, I cannot believe that being a loose aggressive winning player is possible. Why? Because there's that stupid type of player that just STUPIFIES the loose aggressive: the calling station. And you'll find a lot more of those down at the lower limits than up in the higher ones. I wouldn't recommend trying it out on the penny tables.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChezJ

secondly, citing the "Style Wheel" post is totally meaningless, especially considering that if you read the whole thread, the entire concept of the Wheel is debunked therein.

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Term definitions not withstanding, the concept of the Wheel is far from debunked.

You should never confine yourself to one style of play. Always play as the table conditions dictate, don't focus on playing "lagg" or 'tagg" just focus on taking your opponents money in the best way possible.