When to bluff the flop when u r preflop raiser

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06-23-2005, 05:36 AM
Checkways

When to bluff the flop when u r preflop raiser

Of course, it depends on the number of callers, the flop, and the players involved, but... How often should a person do it?

Aren't you somewhat obligated to bet? I see so many weak players raise preflop, then check when all rags come out. It screams AK and now unless an A or K hits turn or river, they've lost the pot.

It also empowers the button to bluff you out with his/her lesser hand.

Do you guys have certain rules for yourself when u hold AK and the flop comes rags? Is there are a certain number of callers that you require to keep you from bluffing the flop? Heads up you have to bet, right?
06-23-2005, 06:58 AM
spino1i

I would not make a top pair bluff at stakes 100 NL and below. There are too many people that play passively and wait for you to bet with their low pocket pairs or low pairs. A hand I had recently at 200 (!) NL illustrates this:

***** Hand History for Game 2249807971 *****
$200 NL Hold'em - Thursday, June 23, 02:38:17 EDT 2005
Table Table 36543 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: hoganAA ( $137.8 )
Seat 2: moon_li ( $113.3 )
Seat 3: SunDevil87 ( $277 )
Seat 4: elselselsels ( $228.6 )
Seat 5: mark_beenyc ( $190.7 )
Seat 6: Cole333 ( $205.05 )
Seat 7: Wooody68 ( $100.82 )
Seat 9: Kingfish__ ( $197 )
Seat 10: bigdogskis ( $312.15 )
Seat 8: poseidon68 ( $112.12 )
SunDevil87 posts small blind [$1].
elselselsels posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Kingfish__ [ Ah Kh ]
>You have options at Table 41397 Table!.
mark_beenyc folds.
Cole333 folds.
Wooody68 calls [$2].
poseidon68 folds.
>You have options at Table 49238 Table!.
Kingfish__ raises [$7].
bigdogskis folds.
hoganAA folds.
moon_li folds.
SunDevil87 folds.
elselselsels folds.
Wooody68 calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, 4s, 7d ]
Wooody68 checks.
>You have options at Table 41397 Table!.
Kingfish__ checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
Wooody68 checks.
Kingfish__ bets [$10].
Wooody68 calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ 9d ]
Wooody68 checks.
Kingfish__ bets [$20].
Wooody68 calls [$20].
Kingfish__ shows [ Ah, Kh ] a pair of kings.
Wooody68 doesn't show [ Td, Tc ] a pair of tens.
Kingfish__ wins $74 from the main pot with a pair of kings.
06-23-2005, 08:15 AM
a500lbgorilla

Re: When to bluff the flop when u r preflop raiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkways

Of course, it depends on the number of callers, the flop, and the players involved, but... How often should a person do it?

Aren't you somewhat obligated to bet? I see so many weak players raise preflop, then check when all rags come out. It screams AK and now unless an A or K hits turn or river, they've lost the pot.

It also empowers the button to bluff you out with his/her lesser hand.

Do you guys have certain rules for yourself when u hold AK and the flop comes rags? Is there are a certain number of callers that you require to keep you from bluffing the flop? Heads up you have to bet, right?

It's called a continuation bet and I will always make one unless it's 4 people to the flop or I'm certain I could check raise an aggro op behind me.

-'rilla
06-23-2005, 03:33 PM
Checkways

Re: When to bluff the flop when u r preflop raiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkways

Of course, it depends on the number of callers, the flop, and the players involved, but... How often should a person do it?

Aren't you somewhat obligated to bet? I see so many weak players raise preflop, then check when all rags come out. It screams AK and now unless an A or K hits turn or river, they've lost the pot.

It also empowers the button to bluff you out with his/her lesser hand.

Do you guys have certain rules for yourself when u hold AK and the flop comes rags? Is there are a certain number of callers that you require to keep you from bluffing the flop? Heads up you have to bet, right?

It's called a continuation bet and I will always make one unless it's 4 people to the flop or I'm certain I could check raise an aggro op behind me.

-'rilla

That pretty much what I do too if I'm out of position. But man, I can't help myself when the first three or four people have already checked to me. The problem is that they know I'm going to bet and then they raise me or call me with meager holdings because they know I probably won't do a follow up bluff. I'm trying not to autobet when I'm the preflop raiser. But so many times I just scoop the pot when I do.
06-23-2005, 04:33 PM
Miffed22001

Yeah this is a real pain for me too.
I always slap the continuation bet down and hope everyone folds. If they dont you can check the turn anyway.
The only other thing is maybe try to play all preflop raising hands in the same way eg JK or AA and then when the flop hits your opponents wont know what you have. But your gona hit enough of these to make a pay off anyway.
06-23-2005, 11:23 PM
loanhorse

Yep, rilla is right. Always raise to gain information. Before the flop comes you should have some estimate (based on your reads) of what cards your opponent is holding. Continuation bets are about half the pot. By looking at a flop you should be able to decipher whether it was a good flop or bad flop in relation to your opponents possible holding. If you think it helped your opponent and your left with an Ace high fold it...

On the other hand, theres a probe bet. When your last to act and your opponent checks it. Throw in a probe bet usualy 1/3-1/2 of the pot to see where your opponent stands. Constantly test your opponents and there hands, these bets easily pay off in the long run.
06-24-2005, 12:02 AM
moiraine57

I dunno about doing this all the time.

It always cracks me up when the board comes down 2-4-7 offsuit and the PFR fires off another bet. I will often re-raise, especially if I was in a blind and could have been playing any garbage. His raise on the flop in this situation screams continuation bet.
06-24-2005, 12:07 AM
bair

Quote:

Originally Posted by moiraine57

I dunno about doing this all the time.

It always cracks me up when the board comes down 2-4-7 offsuit and the PFR fires off another bet. I will often re-raise, especially if I was in a blind and could have been playing any garbage. His raise on the flop in this situation screams continuation bet.

and then when he reraises you? then what? you raising his bet screams bluff more than his continuation bet. and only half the time will it truly be a continuation bet, the other half it will be a pocket pair. either way you will lose with a lesser hand against an experienced player
06-24-2005, 12:25 AM
moiraine57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bair

Quote:

Originally Posted by moiraine57

I dunno about doing this all the time.

It always cracks me up when the board comes down 2-4-7 offsuit and the PFR fires off another bet. I will often re-raise, especially if I was in a blind and could have been playing any garbage. His raise on the flop in this situation screams continuation bet.

and then when he reraises you? then what? you raising his bet screams bluff more than his continuation bet. and only half the time will it truly be a continuation bet, the other half it will be a pocket pair. either way you will lose with a lesser hand against an experienced player

Bair, either your experience playing poker is completely different from mine, or you totally misunderstood my post.

I am not advocating calling a huge pre-flop raise by a tight player with garbage, and the playing back at the PFR with garbage when he fires out another enormous bet.

What I am talking about is a situation like this: a loose PFR makes a small raise. At that point, say you are in the BB with a decent hand, and you call. The flop comes down rags, and it doesn't hit you, but you still have a decent hand, and you'd like to see more cards. You check. The PFR makes a continuation bet. Check-raise his ass. In my experience, he will usually fold. If he calls, fine. You have a decent playable hand. If he goes over the top, fold.

Will this work at super high stakes hold em? Probably not. Will it give you a decent chance of winning the pot right there at the levels that I and many others play at on this forum? Yes.

As a side benefit, it has the tendency to slow down that annoying LAGgy guy at the table.

Do you disagree?
06-24-2005, 01:30 AM
journey075

Quote:

Originally Posted by moiraine57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bair

Quote:

Originally Posted by moiraine57

I dunno about doing this all the time.

It always cracks me up when the board comes down 2-4-7 offsuit and the PFR fires off another bet. I will often re-raise, especially if I was in a blind and could have been playing any garbage. His raise on the flop in this situation screams continuation bet.

and then when he reraises you? then what? you raising his bet screams bluff more than his continuation bet. and only half the time will it truly be a continuation bet, the other half it will be a pocket pair. either way you will lose with a lesser hand against an experienced player

Bair, either your experience playing poker is completely different from mine, or you totally misunderstood my post.

I am not advocating calling a huge pre-flop raise by a tight player with garbage, and the playing back at the PFR with garbage when he fires out another enormous bet.

What I am talking about is a situation like this: a loose PFR makes a small raise. At that point, say you are in the BB with a decent hand, and you call. The flop comes down rags, and it doesn't hit you, but you still have a decent hand, and you'd like to see more cards. You check. The PFR makes a continuation bet. Check-raise his ass. In my experience, he will usually fold. If he calls, fine. You have a decent playable hand. If he goes over the top, fold.

Will this work at super high stakes hold em? Probably not. Will it give you a decent chance of winning the pot right there at the levels that I and many others play at on this forum? Yes.

As a side benefit, it has the tendency to slow down that annoying LAGgy guy at the table.

Do you disagree?

well put.

however, i think this works more at higher stakes. at lower stakes youre going to turn the preflop aggressor into calldown mode.
06-24-2005, 01:31 AM
loanhorse

I agree with bair. Why risk your chips with a check raise. Play it safe. I am not gonna contest a player who has position on me. What if he calls my raise? He has position on me, so im left with a tough decision of what to do on the turn. I am not gonna waste my chips to see if hes bluffing or not. Fancy moves like your talking about are high in risk and low in reward.
06-24-2005, 03:48 AM
Element187

Re: When to bluff the flop when u r preflop raiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkways

Of course, it depends on the number of callers, the flop, and the players involved, but... How often should a person do it?

Aren't you somewhat obligated to bet? I see so many weak players raise preflop, then check when all rags come out. It screams AK and now unless an A or K hits turn or river, they've lost the pot.

It also empowers the button to bluff you out with his/her lesser hand.

Do you guys have certain rules for yourself when u hold AK and the flop comes rags? Is there are a certain number of callers that you require to keep you from bluffing the flop? Heads up you have to bet, right?

It's called a continuation bet and I will always make one unless it's 4 people to the flop or I'm certain I could check raise an aggro op behind me.

-'rilla

agreed, a continuation bet is always in order, it will pick up the pot more times then not.
06-24-2005, 05:20 AM
Checkways

Quote:

Originally Posted by loanhorse

I agree with bair. Why risk your chips with a check raise. Play it safe. I am not gonna contest a player who has position on me. What if he calls my raise? He has position on me, so im left with a tough decision of what to do on the turn. I am not gonna waste my chips to see if hes bluffing or not. Fancy moves like your talking about are high in risk and low in reward.

I will make this move too, but very rarely. There has to be some money in the pot and I have to have a good read on the guy. A big stack also helps. Basically, I only do it if I think my hand is better. That being a better draw, middle pair or ace high.
06-24-2005, 05:35 AM
Checkways

Re: When to bluff the flop when u r preflop raiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkways

Of course, it depends on the number of callers, the flop, and the players involved, but... How often should a person do it?

Aren't you somewhat obligated to bet? I see so many weak players raise preflop, then check when all rags come out. It screams AK and now unless an A or K hits turn or river, they've lost the pot.

It also empowers the button to bluff you out with his/her lesser hand.

Do you guys have certain rules for yourself when u hold AK and the flop comes rags? Is there are a certain number of callers that you require to keep you from bluffing the flop? Heads up you have to bet, right?

It's called a continuation bet and I will always make one unless it's 4 people to the flop or I'm certain I could check raise an aggro op behind me.

-'rilla

Okay, so I broke this rule today and it busted me. Shame on me for not listening to apes.

If anyone's interested in my folly, here's the story. I've been getting junk for a long time, and have been playing tight. I look down and get QJs on the button. I decide to raise expecting to get some respect given my tight play. Wrong. I get five callers.

I already know my money's dead. Before the dealer flips the cards I tell myself that my babies are gone. Don't even try it.

The pot is about $65 now. Flop is 6 7 9 rainbow. Check check check check. I can't help myself. I bet $35.

Fold Fold. Seat 7 thinks for a moment. Seat 1 says, "C'mon man. Someone's gotta keep him honest." Seat 7 calls. Next guy folds. Seat 1 calls.

Okay. That money is gone. Stupid me. Time to get a free card to the river and see if I hit top pair.

Turn is King. Check Check... I go all in for $79.

Look at me. I'm serious now. You called me because you thought I was full of it. Well, I hit my King. I'm a tight player. You cannot call me with a pair of nines.

Seat 7 calls. Seat 1 folds his pair of nines.

Seat 7 shows 8T. He flopped the nut straight and trapped my stupid ass, lol.

Lesson learned. But I still think it was a smart bluff, just a really bad read and very poor timing. I should have known that with six players, that flop is gonna hit somebody big. I give it to seat 7 for really showing weakness. It did NOT look like an act at all.
06-24-2005, 07:42 AM
a500lbgorilla

Re: When to bluff the flop when u r preflop raiser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkways

That pretty much what I do too if I'm out of position. But man, I can't help myself when the first three or four people have already checked to me. The problem is that they know I'm going to bet and then they raise me or call me with meager holdings because they know I probably won't do a follow up bluff. I'm trying not to autobet when I'm the preflop raiser. But so many times I just scoop the pot when I do.

How is this a problem? RERAISE.

When I say always, I dont mean always always. But frequently enough that it becomes the norm.

-'rilla
06-24-2005, 04:05 PM
loanhorse

Raising in early position with QJ was your first mistake. I would maybe limp in and hope to see a cheap flop, but most of the time im folding it. Forget the whole concept of a continuation bet when there are alot of people in the pot and you have a bad hand. The move is high in risk and low in reward.

Quote:

Before the dealer flips the cards I tell myself that my babies are gone. Don't even try it.

Should of listened to yourself. After the turn you check a good move. Yet on the river, you feel too tempted by the pot size to toss your hand so you go all in and lose it all. Thats why once someones calls your continuation bet and you have crap your done with the hand. Your opponent was smart enough to realize you had nothing and checked it on 4th street, to project weakness. Only time I might bet again would be a 1/3 pot sized bet on river if i thought he was on a draw and missed.
06-24-2005, 04:53 PM
Element187

Quote:

Originally Posted by moiraine57

Bair, either your experience playing poker is completely different from mine, or you totally misunderstood my post.

I am not advocating calling a huge pre-flop raise by a tight player with garbage, and the playing back at the PFR with garbage when he fires out another enormous bet.

i am advocating this.
06-24-2005, 04:56 PM
Element187

Quote:

Originally Posted by loanhorse

I agree with bair. Why risk your chips with a check raise. Play it safe. I am not gonna contest a player who has position on me. What if he calls my raise? He has position on me, so im left with a tough decision of what to do on the turn. I am not gonna waste my chips to see if hes bluffing or not. Fancy moves like your talking about are high in risk and low in reward.

bingo.. you dont want to get involved like this out of position.
06-24-2005, 04:59 PM
Element187

Quote:

Originally Posted by loanhorse

Raising in early position with QJ was your first mistake. I would maybe limp in and hope to see a cheap flop, but most of the time im folding it. Forget the whole concept of a continuation bet when there are alot of people in the pot and you have a bad hand. The move is high in risk and low in reward.

Quote:

Before the dealer flips the cards I tell myself that my babies are gone. Don't even try it.

Should of listened to yourself. After the turn you check a good move. Yet on the river, you feel too tempted by the pot size to toss your hand so you go all in and lose it all. Thats why once someones calls your continuation bet and you have crap your done with the hand. Your opponent was smart enough to realize you had nothing and checked it on 4th street, to project weakness. Only time I might bet again would be a 1/3 pot sized bet on river if i thought he was on a draw and missed.

he was on the button, i dont see the problem with raising from the button with any two cards if you think you can pick it up.
06-24-2005, 05:06 PM
ChezJ

i am all for continuation bets. but i also believe that if you play against the same people for an extended period of time, it is inevitable that they will catch on to you and try to checkraise your ass when they outflop you. so every once in a while, when the flop totally and utterly misses your hand (e.g., Td 9d 9c vs your As 4s), you should go ahead and take the free card when it's checked to you. overly predictable aggression is just as much of a weakness as overly predictable passivity.

remember, it is not about winning EVERY pot, it's about winning the long game.

ChezJ