First Post - Was this the correct play

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06-12-2005, 10:28 AM
Gareth

First Post - Was this the correct play

Hi all - as you can see from the title this is my first post, I would just like to start with thanking all u regular poster's for giving beginners like myself valuable information - I feel my game has really improved since I found this site.

so here goes,

This situation arises quite a lot when i'm playing and would appreciate someone else's view point on this (how would they play it).

Site - William Hill
Game - £5+ £0.50 SnG
User Name - Dinghy

-----HAND 8------
Game #494098184: Texas Hold'em No Limit (7/15) - 2005/06/12 - 12:53:20 (UK)
Table "STT1 689971 - 1" Seat 8 is the button.
Seat 1: Mrfrosty (1000 in chips)
Seat 2: Micksta (925 in chips)
Seat 4: Initiald (1746 in chips)
Seat 5: Dinghy (940 in chips)
Seat 7: tender (978 in chips)
Seat 8: Brian99 (294 in chips)
Seat 9: Henneberg (985 in chips)
Seat 10: Syngyn (3132 in chips)
Henneberg: posts small blind 7
Syngyn: posts big blind 15
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Dinghy [8h 8c]
Mrfrosty: calls 15
Micksta: calls 15
Initiald: calls 15
Dinghy: calls 15
tender: folds
Brian99: raises to 294 and is all-in
Henneberg: folds
Syngyn: folds
Mrfrosty: calls 279
Micksta: folds
Initiald: calls 279
Dinghy: folds
----- FLOP ----- [3h 8d 4s]
Mrfrosty: bets 706 and is all-in
Initiald: folds
Returned uncalled bets 706 to Mrfrosty
----- TURN ----- [3h 8d 4s][Qc]
----- RIVER ----- [3h 8d 4s Qc][Js]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Mrfrosty: shows [Th Td] (A Pair of Tens, Queen high)
Brian99: shows [8s Qh] (Two Pairs, Queens and Eights, Jack high)
Brian99 collected 934 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 934 Main pot 934 Rake 0
Board [3h 8d 4s Qc Js]
Seat 2: Micksta folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Initiald folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Dinghy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: tender folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Brian99 (button) showed [8s Qh] and won (934) with Two Pairs, Queens and Eights, Jack high
Seat 9: Henneberg (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Syngyn (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

My reason for folding is that early on in SnG's I don't like calling a big percentage of my stack with so many folk in the pot with a small / medium pocket pair - I prefer to wait until I have a stronger hand.

Is this the correct play?
06-12-2005, 10:49 AM
DWDuck

Welcome to the boards!

Easy fold. You will not make enough long term with this play to make it worth it. You'd be calling off 30% of your stack on a 12% chance that you're hitting a set. Don't let the fact that an 8 hit on the flop make you think you made a poor move.

G00t fold.

Darkwing
06-12-2005, 11:29 AM
Gareth

Thanks for your reply DWDuck,

How you have described the situation are the words I was trying to find.

Like you say that fact the 8 hit the flop is immaterial to the decision to fold to the raise preflop.
06-12-2005, 06:21 PM
vqc

I think the rule is that

if its less than 5% of your stack you can call it off.
If its more than 10% of your stack you shouldnt call.
If its in between its up to ur own judgement.
06-13-2005, 09:14 AM
Gareth

thanks for the guideline -

Have taken a note of it (keep it next to the computer),

Did this come from a book and if so which one - the reason i ask is that i've not read any poker books yet, i would imagine if this book contains a lot of these rules it would be a good place to start.

Cheers
06-13-2005, 09:21 AM
bair

read every guide you can find and every book you can get your hands on, sklansky's theory of poker, sklanskys guide to advanced hold em, supersystems 1, supersystems 2, mike caro's poker tells, dan harringtons guide to no limit tournaments.

and your play was fine, an all in with 2 callers, gotta fold
06-13-2005, 09:23 AM
drmcboy

Calling would have been bad... both show a little weakness so you could make a case for moving in here, but fold generally the best play.
06-13-2005, 12:20 PM
gabe

if you had a few hundred more chips here, i would say push.
06-13-2005, 12:43 PM
TanO

Interesting one, it may not be the right play, but I'd probably call here knowing how loose this game is.

You're on hand 8 and have already lost 2 players - thats pretty fast.

I'll assume that the allin is a desperate push after losing most of his chips on the last hand or the last but one so we can't give it any credit.

If it was me I'd be inclined to call, you have no one left to act behind you so there's no danger of being reraised before the flop, you're getting 3-1 on your money, I'd call and let it go if the flop looked dangerous Yes I know this is a mathematically incorrect play! but if you hit it's going to pay off big time and if you dont it's still easy to climb back from 700 chips.
06-13-2005, 02:04 PM
Gareth

Thanks for your replys,

bair - thanks for the list of books, I have taken a note and will be getting them as soon as i have some cash (skint just now :cry: ).

drmcboy - gabe - too many maniacs (early on) to go all-in in these games, wouldn't push inless i had a monster.

Tan0 - what u have said did go through my thought process, this was the reason for the post - I think overall i will just keep folding in this case and wait for a better opportunity.

In hand 16 the same thing happend - but this time i called - the guy had just lost half his chips in the previous hand and i felt he was going to go all-in again HH below,

------HAND 1------
Game #494134134: Texas Hold'em No Limit (15/30) - 2005/06/12 - 13:01:29 (UK)
Table "STT1 689971 - 1" Seat 8 is the button.
Seat 1: Mrfrosty (1262 in chips)
Seat 2: Micksta (1090 in chips)
Seat 4: Initiald (982 in chips)
Seat 5: Dinghy (1105 in chips)
Seat 7: tender (933 in chips)
Seat 8: Brian99 (568 in chips)
Seat 9: Henneberg (1075 in chips)
Seat 10: Syngyn (2985 in chips)
Henneberg: posts small blind 15
Syngyn: posts big blind 30
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Dinghy [Jc Jh]
Mrfrosty: folds
Micksta: folds
Initiald: calls 30
Dinghy: calls 30
tender: folds
Brian99: raises to 568 and is all-in
Henneberg: folds
Syngyn: folds
Initiald: calls 538
Dinghy: calls 538
----- FLOP ----- [5d Jd Tc]
Initiald: checks
Dinghy: checks
----- TURN ----- [5d Jd Tc][8d]
Initiald: bets 414 and is all-in
Dinghy: calls 414
----- RIVER ----- [5d Jd Tc 8d][8h]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Initiald: shows [9h 9s] (Two Pairs, Nines and Eights, Jack high)
Dinghy: shows [Jc Jh] (A Full House, Jacks full of Eights)
Brian99: shows [Ad Ac] (Two Pairs, Aces and Eights, Jack high)
Dinghy collected 828 from Side pot #1
Dinghy collected 1749 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 2577 Main pot 1749 Side pot #1 828 | Rake 0
Board [5d Jd Tc 8d 8h]
Seat 1: Mrfrosty folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Micksta folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Dinghy showed [Jc Jh] and won (2577) with A Full House, Jacks full of Eights
Seat 7: tender folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Henneberg (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Syngyn (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
06-13-2005, 02:16 PM
Gareth

Thanks for your replys,

bair - thanks for the list of books, I have taken a note and will be getting them as soon as i have some cash (skint just now :cry: ).

drmcboy - gabe - too many maniacs (early on) to go all-in in these games, wouldn't push inless i had a monster.

Tan0 - what u have said did go through my thought process, this was the reason for the post - I think overall i will just keep folding in this case and wait for a better opportunity.

In hand 16 the same thing happend - but this time i called - the guy had just lost half his chips in the previous hand and i felt he was going to go all-in again HH below,

------HAND 1------
Game #494134134: Texas Hold'em No Limit (15/30) - 2005/06/12 - 13:01:29 (UK)
Table "STT1 689971 - 1" Seat 8 is the button.
Seat 1: Mrfrosty (1262 in chips)
Seat 2: Micksta (1090 in chips)
Seat 4: Initiald (982 in chips)
Seat 5: Dinghy (1105 in chips)
Seat 7: tender (933 in chips)
Seat 8: Brian99 (568 in chips)
Seat 9: Henneberg (1075 in chips)
Seat 10: Syngyn (2985 in chips)
Henneberg: posts small blind 15
Syngyn: posts big blind 30
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Dinghy [Jc Jh]
Mrfrosty: folds
Micksta: folds
Initiald: calls 30
Dinghy: calls 30
tender: folds
Brian99: raises to 568 and is all-in
Henneberg: folds
Syngyn: folds
Initiald: calls 538
Dinghy: calls 538
----- FLOP ----- [5d Jd Tc]
Initiald: checks
Dinghy: checks
----- TURN ----- [5d Jd Tc][8d]
Initiald: bets 414 and is all-in
Dinghy: calls 414
----- RIVER ----- [5d Jd Tc 8d][8h]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Initiald: shows [9h 9s] (Two Pairs, Nines and Eights, Jack high)
Dinghy: shows [Jc Jh] (A Full House, Jacks full of Eights)
Brian99: shows [Ad Ac] (Two Pairs, Aces and Eights, Jack high)
Dinghy collected 828 from Side pot #1
Dinghy collected 1749 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 2577 Main pot 1749 Side pot #1 828 | Rake 0
Board [5d Jd Tc 8d 8h]
Seat 1: Mrfrosty folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Micksta folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Dinghy showed [Jc Jh] and won (2577) with A Full House, Jacks full of Eights
Seat 7: tender folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Henneberg (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Syngyn (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Did not think he had a hand, turns out he had AA. The other guy who checked the flop, i felt that he would have bet if he was on for a flush or straight, so i checked as i felt he would go all-in on the turn.

The more i look at this hand I realise i'm not happy with the way i played the flop - I feel now i should have gave him no free cards - as the turn then gave him outs to beat me.

:idea: Think i'm going to start looking at HH of my games more often!
06-13-2005, 02:25 PM
bair

move AI after the flop, the preflop call was fine as well since he was shortstacked and could be pushing with anything from AXs to AA, he just happened to have a monster this time, but you got lucky so its all good. but i think pushing AI after the flop is a must here since you have the nuts, and theres 2 connecting cards as well as 2 suited cards.
06-13-2005, 02:41 PM
vqc

A set on a flush/straight draw board, is an automatic bet. In this case, the best bet you can make is to go all in. So go all in.
06-13-2005, 03:16 PM
Bad Beaten

Will Hill is a casino site, isn't it?

That means a lot of loose, shitty players there to gamble rather than play competent poker...

If your bankroll can afford it, I'd say gogogo...
06-13-2005, 04:54 PM
Gareth

bair - vqchuang - agree with both of you, once i went over the hand i realised i should have went all-in, good to know for next time.

Bad Beaten - I play at their poker site but never played at the casino site (sounds good though).

there is a lot of loose bad players - (great when u get the cards early on) - I'm sure thats the same story on all poker sites at the low levels of SnG's
06-13-2005, 04:58 PM
gabe

2nd hand---allin preflop. you don't want to be in a 3 way pot, push allin and hope the first caller folds so you can pick up extra chips if you win, but dont have to worry about him beating you. do not just call off half your chips and expect to play postflop.
06-13-2005, 05:23 PM
gabe

after thinking about it, you could probably just fold. you don't have to push. but calling the 500 chip short stack raise is the worst possible move. push or fold.
06-13-2005, 06:05 PM
vqc

i agree with gabezor, Calling is the worst possible thing preflop.

it sets u up for folding on the flop which whould be retarded, or pushing the flop which might be a bad thing.

so ur stuck with pushing or folding. I am realyl at 50 50 here between folding and pushing.

Pushing might be pushing out the maniac caller which is good. ALthough the call might represent some strength. Then again, AA KK QQ would be reraising here not just calling (credit to gabezor). Think about it.

TOUGHIE!
06-13-2005, 06:56 PM
Gareth

I agree with both of you on this - the more I look at it the worse it looks calling half my chips (cringe).

I felt I had the best hand in this situation,

- This first person that went all-in was always going to do that - so he either had nothing or a monster! (last time he had Q8)

- The other person who called surely like you says would have raised if he had a better hand than I did!

So yes I feel the correct play here is to go all-in.

I appreciate your time and help here.
06-13-2005, 07:07 PM
vqc

gabezor is a gene-ass.