Cant....Lay...It Down..(KK)

Playing in a NL ring game, .10/.20, and I get the KK dealt in MP. UTG raises to .60, I go 1.20, all fold and UTG goes all-in ($11). I'm thinkin', "crap, I'm up against AA." But at these limits I have seen people go AI with AK, AQ, QQ, etc.

Bottom line is I CANT LAY THE SUCKER DOWN!

How in the world can you ever lay down KK (pre-flop). I just cannot see myself ever doing it.

Well, the cards show and I'm devastated, then the K hits on the flop - YESSS!!!!, then the A on the turn - NOOOOOO!!

SHOULDA laid it down, man, shoulda laid it down.

Yea, right.......

You dont kno when to lay down KK so dont lay it down. QQ you can think about. Not KK.

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Playing in a NL ring game, .10/.20, and I get the KK dealt in MP. UTG raises to .60, I go 1.20, all fold and UTG goes all-in ($11). I'm thinkin', "crap, I'm up against AA." But at these limits I have seen people go AI with AK, AQ, QQ, etc.

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Can you say possible massive overbet, boys and girls? Kinda sounds fishy. It could easily be someone with a decent hand who was offended you pushed back at him and wants to take down the pot immediately. If I have AA, I want to put out a big bet you'll call, not push to where even pocket Ks thinks about folding.

I think you made the right move. Hard to lay down pocket Ks unless you're absolutely sure this guy would not go all in with anything but As. And in my mind, the way he played pre-flop created enough doubt to justify a call.

Yeah, Fnord told me a while back , and I have adopted this strategy since, that if I pick up KK, I am paying off AA 99% of the time, especially at the lower buy-ins. As you say, too many people make a move with AQ, AJ and the like. Hell, I've seen people who have obviously been watching WPT on TV far too much and move in w/ 99 and TT.

The two biggest (in pot terms) all-in battles I've seen at £0.15/£0.25 NL have been a three-way scrap between AJ, AK and KQ - none of them had rockets or even KK.

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Originally Posted by Staresy

Yeah, Fnord told me a while back , and I have adopted this strategy since, that if I pick up KK, I am paying off AA 99% of the time, especially at the lower buy-ins. As you say, too many people make a move with AQ, AJ and the like. Hell, I've seen people who have obviously been watching WPT on TV far too much and move in w/ 99 and TT.

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When I'm facing somebody whom I know is fishy enough to call with hands like 8-6 suited and everyone else is showing weakness, I'd push in with a middle PP. Of course, last time I did that, my 10s got cracked by the aforementioned hand when the fuckwit hit trip 8s on the turn.

Update:

Later on in the night, I got KK again in a MTT, and I played it the same. Ended up all in preflop against 2 callers. They had 44 and JJ. Still lost the hand to a 4 on the turn, but it just reinforces my point that just because someone reraises your reraise doesn't mean they have AA. I cannot see ANY time that I would ever be able to lay down KK - period.

Good news is I still finished 2nd in the tourney.

The other good news is later in a cash game, I got AA and ended up going against KK. I did win that one, and it was nice to be on the other side of the equation. That hand and a few others allowed me to quadruple up on my buy-in and finish the night way up.

i will not fold KK ever preflop. I got SO close to thinking maybe I should start, but one time I got KK, someone raised preflop to 4x, i rereaised to 12x, he reraised to 50xBB, I said well crap I'm sure he has AA... But I pushed anyway, and he folded. Since then, I will never fold KK.

I just resign myself to losing my stack the 1 in 20 odd time someone has AA against my KK. The times you win against a weaker hand played the same more make up for the defeats.. And the times you bad beat the rockets :-)

there are times when you kk is good, and there are time when it's not. Here's a tell... if the pot is raised and you reraise strong (like 2x pot) and they push (or someone else does) - and it's not a special situation like rebuy period or the guy's on tilt - and you havent' been playing like a lunatic, then the pusher has 1 of 2 hands 95% of the time, KK or AA.

if someone else raises strong and you reraise and they call instead of pushing, or if they go ai "cold" in front of you (into an unraised pot), then yea you might be up against tt, jj, qq or someone on some other cards because they're tilting out.

Will you SEE where this happens and they don't have AA or KK, yea. But you have to factor yourself into the equation. If you're a "dangerous" player - i.e. you've taken big pots with strong hands - then people are only going to push into your obvious strength with a nut type hand. When you see it happen with others reflect back on the crap they've overplayed in the past and you'll understand why JJ or QQ pushed in that situation. Low stakes NL players are cheap generally and timid generally with strength in front of them. If a Dangerous player reraises strong then they'll typically call anything below kk and see if an a or k flops then throw their chips away post flop with shit like JJ when no overcards hit. But they won't push into your strength preflop... sorry to all those who think different. If poker is about making the right reads and playing the proper odds, then calling with KK as described above is bad poker. Monkeys do it and lose more money with KK then they win with KK in that situation (by far).

How do you lay down KK? you'll see alot of posts that say "I almost never lay down KK" Listen, if you've shown that you only play quality and you reraise 2x pot with a raiser in front and someone pushes, they have AA or KK. So lay the cowboys down unless you want to Gamble Up, but if you're doing that then ANY 2 WILL DO against the Aces you're likely to be competing against.

This is basic psychology. Even bad players aren't suicidal. They have to put you on AA or KK, so they're only pushing with AA or KK themselves. There are situations where a big raise doesn't mean AA or KK, but an ai push against a strong raise and reraise AINT IT.

The exceptions are during the rebuy period and if you're up against a desperate or tilting small stack. But if it's a normal game people will call their QQ, JJ etc. if they want to play and hope to "crack your aces". Unless they have AA then they'll..... oh yea... they'll PUSH.

Here's another secret for low stakes NL ring - see if this sounds familiar (again if you're a strong player who plays strong cards and bets them appropriately). You're banging along with trips (or whatever) making pot sized bet and getting called, then all of a sudden the caller reraises you back Hard. Hmmmm you think. Another heart hit, does he have the flush? or the T hit, did that make his straight? or "how could an overcard to my trips possibly help him?" Call him and you'll find out the answers are
Yes,
Yes,
And he caught the over SET. (theres a small chance he caught 2 pair, but that's the exception not the rule)

So you call him (or reraise him or push or whatever) see that you're beat and go SHIT. If you're making pot sized bets and get reraises, you better have the nuts in low stakes NL ring when someone decides to push back into you. People don't bluff in that situation. Basic psychology.

The good news is, 90% of the time if they're calling they're beat, no matter how big the bet. Bad players call pot sized bets with dominated hands but they only raise when their dominated hand Makes a Monster.

Good luck.

Thanks AOK!

That last part is so true, and I have learned my lesson on that. Call, call, call, WHAM! "What the heck, is he trying to bluff me off my hand?" Always turns out they hit the card they were waiting for, and I get burned. I'm done with that scenario.

One question in realation to your post, AOK. There is a lot of talk in this forum about sometimes playing some weird hands in position to folded or unraised pots in order to give off an image that you are playing junk occasionally. I believe it is in order to solicit action on your premium hands. Does this change some of the psychology you talk about in your post? Maybe you don't subscribe to the "showdown some junk hands to throw them off" theory at all.