PokerStars VIP Club Changes Effective January 1st, 2012.

Hi guys,

Happy Holidays to all. Below is the announcement regarding the VIP Club changes planned for 2012.

Cliff notes version: Change from the 'Dealt method' of assigning VPPs to the 'Weighted Contributed method'. Also minor changes to the way rake is calculated and more consistent rake caps across stakes.

Here is the full explanation:

Thank you all for your patience in waiting for this announcement of VIP changes effective January 1, 2012. Details of planned changes in ring game rake are also included below as they may impact players’ playing plans in 2012.

Change from ‘Dealt’ to ‘Weighted Contributed’

VPP earnings at ring games will be calculated using the ‘weighted contributed’ method, changing from the ‘dealt’ method. The weighted contributed method awards VPPs to each player based on how much they contribute to the pot. You can read more about the weighted contributed calculation here: New VPP Method -Important PokerStars Ring Game Changes
Ring game players will be affected differently by this change depending on their play style. Some players will earn VPPs faster while others will earn them more slowly. The total number of VPPs given out as a result of each hand is the same using the ‘weighted contributed’ and ‘dealt’ calculations.

While each player is different, overall the weighted contributed method will reward players with lower VIP statuses more and players with higher VIP statuses less. In summary this change will make the distribution of VIP Club benefits more balanced, less top heavy toward Supernova+ VIPs. Players earning a higher VIP status will still earn points faster and gain more and better options for redeeming FPPs.

Weighted Contributed vs. Winner Take All

Winner take all (WTA) is another method of awarding VPPs that was suggested by some players. We considered WTA, but decided that weighted contributed is a superior method of allocating VPPs after a thorough evaluation of both options.

The WTA method results in significantly more volatility in player VPP earnings from session to session and day to day. This can make it more difficult for players to plan their play based on expected VPP earnings. Players may also psychologically feel that it is unfair that when taking a bad beat they lose not only the pot but also all VPP earnings for the hand. On a larger scale, players experiencing a session with particularly negative results may not appreciate earning far fewer VPPs than anticipated in addition to losing funds at the tables.

We did review the differences in how the weighted contributed and winner take all methods would award VPPs to players in the long run. While individual players would earn VPPs at different rates due to differing play styles, as a group the members of each VIP level would see no material difference in the number of VPPs earned between the weighted contributed and winner take all methods.


VPP Awarding at Euro Currency Tables

VPP Multipliers for Euro Currency tournaments and ring games are being modified based on the current exchange rate between the USD and EUR currencies as follows:

Tournaments and ring games with 7 and fewer seats: 7x

Ring games with 8 or more seats: 8x

PL/NL €0.01/€0.02: 12x

PL/NL €0.02/€0.05: 10x

PL/NL €0.05/€0.10: 8.5x

The number of FPPs per Euro of reward in a standard FPP satellite to a EUR currency tournament will be reduced from 85 to 81, making FPPs used in such tournaments more valuable.

Implementation

All of the above changes are planned for implementation in the first days of 2012, Eastern (US) Time.

PokerStars.be, PokerStars.dk, and PokerStars.ee

PokerStars.be, PokerStars.dk, and PokerStars.ee players who are playing ring games and tournaments shared with PokerStars.com players will be subject to the same rake and tournament fees including the weighted contributed method of awarding ring game VPPs. VPP Multipliers and other VIP Club Rewards will be announced separately for each of these licenses.

Additional Changes

We recognize that the annual basis of Supernova+ VIP Status, VIP Stellar Rewards, and Milestone Cash Credits results in many players planning their PokerStars play at the start of each year based on the game conditions and VIP Program rewards at that time. We cannot guarantee that there will not be meaningful VIP Program changes during the year, but every attempt will be made to avoid such midyear changes that could have a significant negative impact on players’ plans.
We do not plan any significant changes to ring games offerings at this time other than the planned addition of a fast moving ring games product sometime in the first quarter of 2012.

Additional 6-player and 9-player hyper turbo Sit & Go Tournaments are still under consideration for deployment in January 2012. Players will be notified in these forums in advance of such additions. Sit & Go offerings will continue to be evaluated periodically throughout the year resulting in changes being made as needed.

cliffs - new system will be net negative for the vast majority of ring game regs at stakes above 10nl. Stars have made changes to rake and vip systems that will result in them making more money by reducing the cost of their VIP rewards.

Originally Posted by PokerStars VIP

Ring game players will be affected differently by this change depending on their play style. Some (basically zero high volume) players will earn VPPs faster while others (all regs) will earn them more slowly. The total number of VPPs given out as a result of each hand is the same using the ‘weighted contributed’ and ‘dealt’ calculations (but the number of FPPs given out via the new system will be substantially lower).

While each player is different, overall the weighted contributed method will reward players with lower VIP statuses more (note that these players convert fpps at the lowest rate) and players with higher VIP statuses less. In summary this change will make the distribution of VIP Club benefits more balanced (not quite true, it will make it cheaper. Maybe this would hold if the number of FPPs handed out per hand remained constant, and if FPP->cash conversion rates were consistent across all VIP levels. The net cost to stars of VIP Club benefits will be substantially lower), less top heavy toward Supernova+ VIPs. Players earning a higher VIP status will still earn points faster and gain more and better options for redeeming FPPs.

Dylan C

wow, what an awful piece of deceptive writing. I've fixed some of it for you. Well, it's still awful, but a little more honest.
How does it feel to be working for deception, the man, the shaft everyone else in pursuit of the almighty dollar? guess it kinda feels like being a poker player

link to 2p2 organised sitout protest here:
***Mass Sitout to Protest Stars 2012 Rake Changes*** - Page 2 - Internet Poker - Online Poker Forum

I would respect this sort of post a lot more if it did in fact punish the nits, but WITHOUT a HUGE profit increase for the poker site.

I mean the change from dealt to weighted contributed we're all familiar with from when FTP changed right

with these changes , why aren't 6max players given the same vpps per$ as full ring players.you are saying that your rewards are now directly related to your share of the rake you contributed so why not make it the same reward rate?

being a casual micro stakes player i couldn't really care about whether higher stakes FR nits are getting their rakeback cut from 56%+-> ~40%. I find it funny how you present this as benefitting lower stakes players lauding the drop in the rake rate. Will you also be dropping the required number of vpps for silver and gold as well , or have you just made it 10%harder for the micro players to get their vpp multiplier increase as well as upping the max amount of rake from 2$ to 3$.

It makes no difference to me anyway, started bonus whoring ipoker (+free HM2+ free cardrunners) and once thats done will swap to a straight up 50%+ rake back deal. I personally see no attraction in playing stars except for the safety of my bankroll deposit whereas the euro sites have plenty of sportsbook fish willing to donate their stacks with bottom pair or worse.

I also don't see what a mass sitout is going to achieve. It basically says we don't like this but were staying anyway so you must change this. Stars just laughs and says "no" , players say "oh ,but were not happy about it ", and then carry on playing.

The only thing that will make stars change their mind is everyone withdrawing their bankrolls. and moving to other sites . Even then stars still has the DOJ fines to pay and it will then be coming off a smaller total rake.So chances are that stars have already allowed for a reduction in player numbers and lower overall VIP payouts as their way of paying the fines and are unable to change back again.

from 2+2

Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve

Thank you all for taking the time to express your opinion about the recently announced changes to ring game rake on PokerStars.com for 2012.
As a direct result of player input, we are cancelling the planned rake changes that were to be implemented in early January 2012. We will still use the incremental method to calculate rake instead of true percentage rake. Rake caps and percentages will remain exactly as they are today.
I would like to add a few comments:
The current rake at PokerStars is the lowest by far among all major poker sites.
We are confident that the planned rake changes would have resulted in a further overall decrease in ring game rake site wide, and a decrease for a majority of players.
There has been much inaccurate information spread about the impact of the changes. As an example, the changes would not have resulted in a 50% increase in rake for 5-handed play. While there would have been an increase in average rake for 5-handed play at NL tables with stakes of $0.25/$0.50 and higher, it would be far less than 50% (for stakes up to $0.10/$0.25 there was either no change or reduction in caps for 5-handed play). Most hands do not reach the cap and thus would not be affected. The rake for many hands dealt to 5 players would actually be lower at many stakes due to the lower rake percentage (4.5% reduced from 5%). If players review rake at other online poker rooms, they will discover that it is the standard for the rake caps to be the same when 5 or more players are dealt into a hand. PokerStars has been the one notable exception to this system.
In summary we still believe that the proposed rake system taken as a whole would result in a more balanced and fair rake system for players. However, given that players have responded so negatively to this change, which also has a cost to PokerStars due to the reduced rake, we felt that the best course of action is to cancel the change.
The change to the Weighted Contributed method of awarding VPPs will remain as announced.

You're one step ahead of me Keith. The changes initially planned to how rake is calculated and the rake caps across stakes have now been cancelled. The change to the 'weighted contributed' method of assigning VPPs remains. Below is a more detailed explanation from our VIP Club manager.

As a direct result of player input, we are cancelling the planned rake changes that were to be implemented in early January 2012. We will still use the incremental method to calculate rake instead of true percentage rake. Rake caps and percentages will remain exactly as they are today.

I would like to add a few comments:

The current rake at PokerStars is the lowest by far among all major poker sites.
We are confident that the planned rake changes would have resulted in a further overall decrease in ring game rake site wide, and a decrease for a majority of players.

There has been much inaccurate information spread about the impact of the changes. As an example, the changes would not have resulted in a 50% increase in rake for 5-handed play. While there would have been an increase in average rake for 5-handed play at NL tables with stakes of $0.25/$0.50 and higher, it would be far less than 50% (for stakes up to $0.10/$0.25 there was either no change or reduction in caps for 5-handed play). Most hands do not reach the cap and thus would not be affected. The rake for many hands dealt to 5 players would actually be lower at many stakes due to the lower rake percentage (4.5% reduced from 5%). If players review rake at other online poker rooms, they will discover that it is the standard for the rake caps to be the same when 5 or more players are dealt into a hand. PokerStars has been the one notable exception to this system.

In summary we still believe that the proposed rake system taken as a whole would result in a more balanced and fair rake system for players. However, given that players have responded so negatively to this change, which also has a cost to PokerStars due to the reduced rake, we felt that the best course of action is to cancel the change.

The change to the Weighted Contributed method of awarding VPPs will remain as announced.

Originally Posted by PokerStars VIP

In summary we still believe that the proposed rake system taken as a whole would result in a more balanced and fair rake system for players. However, given that players have responded so negatively to this change, which also has a cost to PokerStars due to the reduced rake, we felt that the best course of action is to cancel the change.

The change to the Weighted Contributed method of awarding VPPs will remain as announced.

This is the biggest load of bullshit propaganda going. There was no complaints about the reduction in rake , that was the compensation for moving to weighted contributed.You have left everyone with a reduction in the vip rewards and taken back the compensation of reduced rake.

1. since the rewards are now based on how much rake you contribute why is there still a difference in reward rate for FR and 6max?Also why is the vpp multilier per $ not increased to compensate for the lowering of rake attributed to players under WC against dealt.

2. since individuals are going to earn fewer vpps for their play under WC this is going to make it harder for micro players particularly to progress up the vip ladder . why arent the qualifying number of vpps for each vip level being reduced by 20% as well to reflect the %20 reduction in vpps they will earn at the tables.

3.theres lots of other arguments being made at 2+2 but i've just realised . Why am I bothering?. when the talk of WC was brought up just before christmas I stopped playing at stars , signed up at Titan with a cardrunners affiliate deal to get the free HEM2 and cardrunners and clear a first deposit bonus. Ive also got other ipoker accounts with 50% rakeback. For me as a micro 6 max player this is now a no brainer - my play will now be at ipoker as the benefits of 50%+ AVERAGE CONTRIBUTED RAKEBACK compared to roughly 10-15% WC rakeback on stars as a silver star just doesn't make stars an attractive propposition.

No doubt i'll just be 1 of many that make the switch .

Player feedback is overwhelmingly in favour of retaining the dealt method of VPP allocation. But this feedback is being ignored. NH stars.

Originally Posted by PokerStars VIP

You're one step ahead of me Keith. The changes initially planned to how rake is calculated and the rake caps across stakes have now been cancelled. The change to the 'weighted contributed' method of assigning VPPs remains. Below is a more detailed explanation from our VIP Club manager.

what a load of bullshit
player feedback is to revert to dealt rather than WC. You are ignoring player feedback. The less generous among us would suspect that you added the various rake calcs and caps to the originally planned WC change merely to be able to drop something and claim that you were responding to player feedback.

Wow, just gathered my money from Betfair and pokerplex24 to put my roll on Stars. I'm going back to my grandfathered deal on Betfair then. I think i will wait for the Bwin/Party merge before moving off of Ongame.

Keith, how did you get that deal on iPoker - cr, hm2 and rakeback?

rakeback account is seperate skin through an affiliate.
cardrunners+hem is CR Deals - Free CardRunners and if you stay there you can then look at doing the trulyfreepokertraining to get free cardrunners after that

PokerStars is pleased to announce that all players on the site, and thus all your opponents, will now pay more rake and consequently win less money. As any poker player knows, where your opponent loses, you gain. Of course you will also lose out slightly in that you pay higher rake, but at full handed tables the collective loss of your opposition will be eight times as great, as the other eight players are also affected by these changes. The comparative gain which you as an individual player will experience is therefore substantial.
Furthermore, in response to recent complaints about the current speed and general state of the withdrawals system, we are pleased to announce a total alleviation of all related problems by removing this feature.

LOL!!

awesome stuff, Maaaaark

Originally Posted by kiwiMark

PokerStars is pleased to announce that all players on the site, and thus all your opponents, will now pay more rake and consequently win less money. As any poker player knows, where your opponent loses, you gain. Of course you will also lose out slightly in that you pay higher rake, but at full handed tables the collective loss of your opposition will be eight times as great, as the other eight players are also affected by these changes. The comparative gain which you as an individual player will experience is therefore substantial.
Furthermore, in response to recent complaints about the current speed and general state of the withdrawals system, we are pleased to announce a total alleviation of all related problems by removing this feature.

gold bro

@ op i imagine it must feel really shit to be the orifice through which all these 'screw the players' changes are being voided on the poker communities, i feel for ya op - sorry for the 'shoot the messenger' tone in my earlier posts. I trust that stars are aware of the sentiments being expressed in this thread.

for the record - i'm another who was considering taking a sne shot in 2012, but now i'm more likely to simply multi-site

Originally Posted by daven

gold bro

@ op i imagine it must feel really shit to be the orifice through which all these 'screw the players' changes are being voided on the poker communities, i feel for ya op - sorry for the 'shoot the messenger' tone in my earlier posts. I trust that stars are aware of the sentiments being expressed in this thread.

for the record - i'm another who was considering taking a sne shot in 2012, but now i'm more likely to simply multi-site

Thanks Daven. I understand that these comments are aimed at the decision, not myself personally.

I have and will be continue to relay comments and feedback from FTR to the appropriate people.

Best,

DylanC

I seem to be getting 1/3 vpp of what I used to. It's a small samble size and I;ve beed card dead, but still.

Btw, thanks for the answer, Keith.

Would be awesome if someone could do some math and present us with differences between old and new system.
But here is a small overview from my semidrunk point of view:
1. OLD SYSTEM
2 players limp for 1$, and big blind checks. Big blind goes all-in flop for 50$, one limper calls 50$, other one folds. Lets say VPP reward total is 30 VPPS so, all 3 players win equal amount like 10 VPP each.

2. NEW SYSTEM
2 players limp for 1$, and big blind checks. Big blind goes all-in flop for 50$, one limper calls 50$, other one folds. Again, reward is like 30VPP, but this time, player that folded wins 1 VPP, and other two players win 14.5 VPP each. Which is quite fair because that limping fish really didn't contribute much.

So, ppl now complaint because they dont win more VPPs then they actually deserve. Right?

It is fair if you look it that way. But if you look at it another - winning style is tighter than losing, so if you and a losing player both play the same tables and hours, he earns more, even though your both customers of the company to the same degree.

It's hard enough winning at micros PLO as is with the high rake and large ammount of flips. It seems that Stars wants to decreese the enge even more and make everyone a losing player to the rake.

@ Nekrogovner, The math depends 100% on your play style. Also weight contributed is WAY fairer then dealt. All sites use weighted so I don't know why you would expect stars to be any different. Stars is making a huge money grab obviously from the lower tier VIP players who spend their FPPs on bad deals. Now the biggest problem which I have not seen mentioned in this thread is that everyones winrate will drop without an actual increase in rakeback rewards(for almost anyone).

This is what happened at FTP. First all the nits lost a pretty huge % of their income. Nits make a large % of a lot of players winnings whether they believe it or not. Once these nits are gone all the players who were winning money from the nits have now suddenly lost a % of their income on top of the money they MAY have lost due to rakeback changes. Basically what happens is a never ending cycle of people busting.

This cycle was always happening but basically what happens now is it will be sped up due to money leaving the system through VERY loose passive players(Hats, bad bonuses, etc) as opposed to nits getting good deals on bonuses and dumping a large % back. Yes nits win but a lot would also dump back up to 50k in the run to the other players. It will not take long for these players to realize they are no longer making a good income and a lot will go back to whatever they were doing before poker. EVERYONES, I mean EVERYONES winrate is going to suffer. This is what occured on FTP and Stars will NO difference even with the rake % drop. A 10% drop in rake CANNOT make up for the nits/pre-flop TAgg styles 15-25% loss due to it being weight contributed.

Keith, could you go here: forumserver.twoplustwo.com/38/small-stakes-pl-omaha/stars-meeting-plo-thread-1151594/index2.html and post how much rake you paid playing on iPoker and other sites which game you rakeback? We need to encourage stars to lower the rake at PLO.

Hi guys,

As most of you know, effective February 1st, 2012 there are further changes to the VIP Club Rewards program going into effect. Here's a rundown:

-Rake % and Caps have been adjusted (if any have specific questions about changes made to their game type/stake let me know)
-Supernova monthly requirements have been moved down from 7500 to 6500 VPPs/month
-You are allowed to miss your SN/SNE requirements for 2 months of the year and still maintain your VIP status.
-Supernova and Supernova Elite statuses now last for the entire calendar year (instead of the previous 9 months) so long as you maintain your monthly requirements.
-Players who earned 100,000+ VPPs or more in 2011, at least half of which were at ring games are eligible for the following:

Players who maintain their VIP status throughout 2012 will be eligible to maintain their VIP status in 2013 even if they did not hit their Supernova/SNE 100k/1M yearly targets.

Players retaining status in this way will be subject to the standard rules for retaining status in 2013. These players will receive the FPP multiplier while their status is retained in 2013 and will also have the ability to play in freerolls and purchase VIP Store items based on their retained VIP status. However, this retention will not affect the ability to purchase Milestone Cash Credits nor will it result in the awarding of a WCOOP Main Event ticket for those who retain SNE in this way.


Let me know if anything's unclear about this or feel free to post further questions/comments.

Cheers,

Dylan

Initial findings in the thread at 2+2 is that far from reducing rake rate the average rake paid in bb/100 has gone up.The changes are essentially what was proposed initially. Rewards for micro players are still miniscule. There is no incentive for me to return to stars while you continue to rape the micro stakes players with the amount of rake they pay.Points that you continue to ignore.

Hi Keith,

I don't think they're being ignored. The most significant reductions were given to microstakes and I do believe that was a main focus of the player meetings, although I wasn't present.

This may not be of use to you if you haven't played much on PokerStars, but if you use HEM, you can compare a sample of your play under the old rake structure versus the new structure and decide for yourself whether you feel we're reduce the rake paid by players in the micros.

Dylan

Actual results of incentives at other sites.

Originally posted this today at 2+2 ,

What you consider to be a good deal for microstakes players , i think is pathetic reward for the rake i pay. I left stars and started december 22nd at Titan through cardrunners , got first deposit bonus , and they ran promos in January which effectively tripled the first deposit bonus rate (total bonus cleared +added so far ~250$), got a free copy of HEM2 (90$),a month + 2 weeks cardrunners ~(45$) and have cleared 10500 points out of the 14000 required for a 100$ cash back (75$).

I cleared 10nl in a month and now playing 20nl , whereas at stars i was pretty much break even at 10nl and typically earning 1200 VPPs per month at silver star.so using your ever so generous VIP package I would have got ~20$ of steller and 25$ of fpp bonus for a grand total of 45$. At ipoker I have more than doubled my deposit and have had bonuses,kickbacks worth nearly 500$. Now persuade me why the hell i'd be stupid enough to come back and play at stars at all?. Once this deposit bonus finished is i can just bonus whore my way round and i already have 55% and 45% rakeback deals signed on other networks..

You have lost me as a customer , and when all your other micro stakes players realise the rewards on offer at other sites you will lose them too.

I appreciate the candid feedback Keith.

It sounds like you're happy with your choice - so whatever I have to say probably won't have an impact but I do think there are other factors which go into the decision making process for players choosing where they play.

Factors such as software, security, customer support, speed and reliability of cashouts, satellites into big tournaments, promotions, rake, and game liquidity are elements which I believe PokerStars excels at.

I'll be passing along your input.

Cheers,

DylanC

Originally Posted by PokerStars VIP

I appreciate the candid feedback Keith.

It sounds like you're happy with your choice - so whatever I have to say probably won't have an impact but I do think there are other factors which go into the decision making process for players choosing where they play.

ok so lets consider them

Factors such as software

stars wins hands down here . for me software is playable though , mass multitablers will struggle, but then they are a major pain in the arse slowing down the games at stars so ithas its benefits.

security,

pretty much even here , both networks seem to crack down on cheats ,colluders bots etc from what i've seen in forum threads.

customer support,

You really think that people play stars for your customer support???? email only correspondence and no public telephone line? compare that with live chat at ipoker and freephone calls 24/7. No comparison ....ipoker wins that one.

speed and reliability of cashouts

pretty much a draw, but uk bookies on ipoker do have the opportunity to actually walk into their betting shops and cash out. But my experience with stars and ipoker are similar

, satellites into big tournaments,

not a tourney player so not really interested , but plenty of promo/vip freerolls going on at ipoker too

promotions,

you mean the reload bonus up to $10 or the thrilling steller and fpp bonuses compared o all the bonuses and cashback going at ipoker .......another crushing win for ipoker i'm afraid.

rake,

oh you you mean where you change the way rake is calculated so that you enbd up taking more rake off the table at the micros whilst promoting a lower % rake rate. The % may be higher at ipoker , but after all the vip/rakeback is considered it is far lower at ipoker for micro players.

and game liquidity are elements which I believe PokerStars excels at.

plenty of tables available at ipoker in the evenings uk time generally with softer players.

I'll be passing along your input.

Cheers,

DylanC

Any recent promotions from Pokerstars? I tried to find something new but unable to find one searching.

stars currently have a spin and go promo running

deposit 25 and get lots of nice tickets for spin and go