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50nl AKo vs 4bet

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  1. #1
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Default 50nl AKo vs 4bet

    stakes are 50nl zoom on PS

    we are BB w/ :Ad: :Kc:

    folded to BTN (villain unknown, full stack) that opens 2.5bb
    hero 3bets to 8bb
    BTN 4bets to 24bb

    hero?

    this is a spot where i lose my head... never know the right play and i just decide on the moment.
    what would be a good flatting range and a 5bet range?
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  2. #2
    Deanglow's Avatar
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    You probably don't want to be flatting many hands vs that ridiculously huge betsize so shove with everything. You'll be probably be fine at 50nl if you shove JJ+ and AQs+ only for 100bb
  3. #3
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    I think i was wrong till now then. I was only jaming kk+ and sometimes Ak QQ. I didnt have a flattong range here cause i was on hit or fold mpde on flop oop . Except some rare ocasions when i was flating aks QQ JJ.
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  4. #4
    griffey24's Avatar
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    100bb?

    Easy shove. The value of AK is seeing all five cards, so unless you plan on calling the 4b and then c/c down on most boards, I would just jam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  5. #5
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Yes 100bb. I expect TT+ AJo+ as 4bet range and calling jam QQ+ and some AK. Am i even close with range estimate for villain?
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  6. #6
    griffey24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    Yes 100bb. I expect TT+ AJo+ as 4bet range and calling jam QQ+ and some AK. Am i even close with range estimate for villain?
    So you're assuming ppl are 4betting TT/JJ and then folding to a 5b?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  7. #7
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    yes, vs an unknown, i suppose they are not calling a 5bet jam 100% w TT/JJ, so i gave them a tigther range, everything that comes up in theyr range besides QQ+, AKo is a bonus to my equity.

    although,beeing such a nit, most of my winnings comes from villains that pay top of my ranges pre/post w/ crap, so TT/JJ may call more often then i thought in this spot.

    i also think that they also could have a wider 4bet range, talking about the average 50nl player in LP v blinds unknown v unknown
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  8. #8
    griffey24's Avatar
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    I guess I'm just suggesting that it would really surprise me if ppl were 4b/folding TT/JJ. I think they will either 4b/call or not 4b and just flat 3b. Doesn't make that much sense to use these hands as 4b bluffs imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  9. #9
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    many hands dont make sense to me and lines that villains use.

    like i said, because i am tight i make the assumption that they are also( unknown villains) and cant understand why would they do something i dont, even though experience thought me that ppl play a lot looser then i think they are.
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  10. #10
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    as to your guess, i am one of the ppl that in LP v blinds ( me LP) i would 4bet/fold TT/JJ and w/ some freqvency even AK/QQ. this is another problem i have vs unknowns.

    w/ ppl i have history/big hands sample, things are a little different but not much. there i need to bluff more to induce spew, something like if in a spot they need 30% to call, i should bluff 25% to induce theyr spew and still keep a profitable range in that spot.
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  11. #11
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    another tough spot to me, what do i do if stacks are 100bb, villain unknown EP and we are MP w/ AK and face villain's 2.5x4bet ?
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  12. #12
    griffey24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    as to your guess, i am one of the ppl that in LP v blinds ( me LP) i would 4bet/fold TT/JJ and w/ some freqvency even AK/QQ. this is another problem i have vs unknowns.

    w/ ppl i have history/big hands sample, things are a little different but not much. there i need to bluff more to induce spew, something like if in a spot they need 30% to call, i should bluff 25% to induce theyr spew and still keep a profitable range in that spot.
    Ok better question is WHY are you 4b TT/JJ in the first place? (ie: Why do you think 4b TT/JJ is better than calling their 3b with TT/JJ or folding to their 3b?)

    Is your 4b for value or a bluff? I know it's not for value vs their 5b range, cause you are folding to their 5b, but are ppl CALLING 4b a lot OOP and so your TT/JJ is for value against their frequent calling? If they aren't calling often, then 4b TT/JJ doesn't make sense imo cause it's a pure 4b bluff. You should 4b bluff better hands with blockers in that case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    like i said, because i am tight i make the assumption that they are also( unknown villains) and cant understand why would they do something i dont, even though experience thought me that ppl play a lot looser then i think they are.

    This is a bad assumption. You are waaaay on the tighter side than the avg player at these stakes I would imagine (statement based on your posts and comments to other ppl's posts). Try not to think about what you would do, but what someone at least a bit more aggro/loose than you would do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  13. #13
    rong's Avatar
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    There's a really good donkr group of articles on gto 3b/4b/5b ranges that would really help your game. I'd strongly suggest reading them and making sure you understand the concepts.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  14. #14
    griffey24's Avatar
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    You're waaay too afraid of stacking off imo. I think dropping down to 25nl and loosening up your stack off ranges till you get used to it, and till the idea of stacking off doesn't bother you as much would do you some good. If the idea of stacking off and losing $25 bucks bothers you then drop down even lower.

    You need to get used to the idea of being all-in many times in a session. Right now you clearly view getting all-in and being wrong as a big mistake. Such a big mistake that you're avoiding it at all costs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  15. #15
    rong's Avatar
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    This is the first of 6 parts
    http://en.donkr.com/forum/optimal-3-...-part-1-533561

    They're long but insightful.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  16. #16
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Why if you're playing 50nl successfully are you still advertising that team donk thing? God that avatar is awful.

    And if you're not playing 50nl successfully, step down. From what I've seen of your posts here, you seem like you're in a similar place to me in terms of poker skill. I'm at 10nl, but I was winning at 25nl until I hit hard times IRL and had to cash my roll in. I'd be delighted for you to prove me wrong, I'm not intending to slap you down. But I think griff is bang on when he says play 25nl. If you're having a hard time knowing what to do with AK on bb vs BU 4bet 100bb deep, you're out of your depth.

    At 10nl I can't shove this fast enough. At 50nl I'm asking myself why I'm playing 50nl and I prob fold to 4bet and immediately step down.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #17
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Ok better question is WHY are you 4b TT/JJ in the first place? (ie: Why do you think 4b TT/JJ is better than calling their 3b with TT/JJ or folding to their 3b?)

    Is your 4b for value or a bluff? I know it's not for value vs their 5b range, cause you are folding to their 5b, but are ppl CALLING 4b a lot OOP and so your TT/JJ is for value against their frequent calling?
    .
    sometimes i flat a 3bet especcially IP w/ TT/JJ. sometimes i 4bet for value , i ge called by Axs, suited broadways, and because there many flop that i dont know how to play excetp i hit my set.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  18. #18
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Why if you're playing 50nl successfully are you still advertising that team donk thing? God that avatar is awful.

    And if you're not playing 50nl successfully, step down. From what I've seen of your posts here, you seem like you're in a similar place to me in terms of poker skill. I'm at 10nl, but I was winning at 25nl until I hit hard times IRL and had to cash my roll in. I'd be delighted for you to prove me wrong, I'm not intending to slap you down. But I think griff is bang on when he says play 25nl. If you're having a hard time knowing what to do with AK on bb vs BU 4bet 100bb deep, you're out of your depth.

    At 10nl I can't shove this fast enough. At 50nl I'm asking myself why I'm playing 50nl and I prob fold to 4bet and immediately step down.
    i am winning at 50nl, but small , 1.5ptbb/100. but i am winning because there are a lot of ppl play a lot worse then me , not because i am good. i started these threads and maybe some more because i am aware that my game need a lot of improvement if i want to win more then i do know. a step down wount harm me and as i recall, i was more willing to stack of on 25nl, mabe i had more experience there, maybe because money didnt seem so much to me, maybe because i knew the pool of players better then i do at 50nl. there could be a lot of reasons, this are just some that i know.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  19. #19
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    This is the first of 6 parts
    http://en.donkr.com/forum/optimal-3-...-part-1-533561

    They're long but insightful.
    ty for the link. going to comeback w/ questions , there will surely be some.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  20. #20
    griffey24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    sometimes i flat a 3bet especcially IP w/ TT/JJ. sometimes i 4bet for value , i ge called by Axs, suited broadways, and because there many flop that i dont know how to play excetp i hit my set.
    Ok just clarifying, so you're 4b TT/JJ (with the intention of folding) because ppl are calling worse hands often OOP right? I suppose this isn't horrible vs players you know CALL a ton of worse hands, but rarely jam over a 4b without QQ/KK/AA (not even AK). Again this is a lot of assumptions you need to be bang on about.

    Again, I do suggest moving down to 25nl despite the fact that you're winning (what is your sample size, for your 1.5ptbb/100 winrate?). In the long run it will be much more beneficial for you getting more accustomed to getting all-in lighter, and not caring about losing a few buyins due to variance.

    If it helps at all, once you shove or call all-in preflop, don't even look at the result/runout on the table. Just focus on your other tables. The result is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  21. #21
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    sample is about 300k hands. 25nl was 2.4ptbb/100 over 500k
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  22. #22
    griffey24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    sample is about 300k hands. 25nl was 2.4ptbb/100 over 500k
    Damn, that's some solid volume! How many tables at once?

    I'm pretty surprised after so many hands you're not de-sensitized to stacking off somewhat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  23. #23
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    4zoom tables.

    well, i play just for money, it's a big part of my monthly income, so if i have seen that i make money w/ my playing style i have kept it.
    but for some time now, i have noticed that ppl that have a good sample on me dont pay me anymore, and it makes sense cause i am so tight that they have realized when they should fold. i have also seen that my game is stagnating and i have no future in poker if i dont start building up my game, if i keep it like this, i will probably just break even cause no one will pay me anymore except donky donks.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  24. #24
    griffey24's Avatar
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    You should post a screenoshot of your stats etc in your 'blog' to get feedback. That could help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  25. #25
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...

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