100nl - BERATE MY SPEW

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($108.05)
UTG ($110.95)
UTG+1 ($100)
MP1 ($51.50)
MP2 ($180.85)
CO ($108.70)
Hero (Button) ($238.20)
SB ($127.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, K
5 folds, Hero bets $2, SB raises to $9, 1 fold, Hero raises to $26, SB calls $17

Flop: ($53) J, 10, A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $17, SB raises to $51, Hero folds

Total pot: $87 | Rake: $3

My question here is basically about my sizing. Is 26 too big pre? I made it this size to max fold equity pre since I have a feeling he'd call smaller. Well obviously it doesn't matter and he calls anyway. Guy is some retard 3betting reg (yeah I know I look like the retard here). Could probably just fold pre but I felt it was an okay time to 4bet given game flow/recent history.

Basically on the flop I'm trying to fold out QQ...I made this sizing with the nuts fwiw. But since he is a wannabe playmaster I am assuming that checking back the gutter here is standard because there is a signifcant chance he has something retarded like 6d4d and is c/r'ing me off my hand. I think he can def have QQ in his range (though also JJ and AA/AK which makes my flop cbet UBER SPEW cuz he won't ever fold).

I doubt he'd 5bet pre w/o the nuts though so discount AA. Pretty sure I just got owned with 7 high or something retarded and should be checking this flop 100% of the time but didn't because I decided to 4bet without a plan for the flop.

BERATE AS YOU WILL

Do you have any reason to believe he's going from 2->9 without real strength? cuz that's pretty big & I tend to just give those large 3bets credit.

And yeah 9->26 seems a bit on the big side IP. Like he's either got a strong enough hand to continue or he's 3b bluffing and 22/23 will do the job.

On the flop as played I feel like giving up is best. I mean the board bitchslaps his range and trying to fold out a small part of someone's range is an expensive habit.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

yeah I know I look like the retard here). Could probably just fold pre but I felt it was an okay time to 4bet given game flow/recent history.

why the min-steal? why the 4-bet? why bet the flop?

if i was the spew monkey wannabe playmaster (which i often am) i would be raising your cbet even if i planned on c/f'ing... even with KQ i wouldnt feel v comfortable betting that small... im curious as to why you do it ? (obviously not saying its wrong, i just rarely bet that small for value/bluff on that drawy a board unless im begging for a c/r from a spewtard)

also i think pre is too big a 4bet, id rather do like 20 and make it look super strong so he calls but respects the cbet a lot or folds the real weak hands. i dont think the extra 7 has a ton of FE..

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

yeah I know I look like the retard here). Could probably just fold pre but I felt it was an okay time to 4bet given game flow/recent history.

why the min-steal? why the 4-bet? why bet the flop?

2x is my standard button open. 4bet I can't really explain, flop bet was made because I didn't feel I could call down profitably if he leads the turn but he could have random garbage that folds and given my sizing he only needs to fold 24% of the time assuming we don't have outs (i.e. always raises or folds and we have to fold our equity share)

Originally Posted by d0zer

Do you have any reason to believe he's going from 2->9 without real strength? cuz that's pretty big & I tend to just give those large 3bets credit.

And yeah 9->26 seems a bit on the big side IP. Like he's either got a strong enough hand to continue or he's 3b bluffing and 22/23 will do the job.

On the flop as played I feel like giving up is best. I mean the board bitchslaps his range and trying to fold out a small part of someone's range is an expensive habit.

all the regs 3bet me to like 9 or so when I open to 2...some even make it 10 lol.

agree that trying to fold out a small part of his range is indeed bad, and since his range still isn't all that clear to me on the flop, I really should just be checking and taking my free shot at a suckout.

Originally Posted by eragotte

if i was the spew monkey wannabe playmaster (which i often am) i would be raising your cbet even if i planned on c/f'ing... even with KQ i wouldnt feel v comfortable betting that small... im curious as to why you do it ? (obviously not saying its wrong, i just rarely bet that small for value/bluff on that drawy a board unless im begging for a c/r from a spewtard)

also i think pre is too big a 4bet, id rather do like 20 and make it look super strong so he calls but respects the cbet a lot or folds the real weak hands. i dont think the extra 7 has a ton of FE..

I bet that small due to SPR given its a 4bet pot and it gives me a better price on my bluffs (leverage) while still allowing to get money in when I'm value betting. What draws are we worried about? We block the K for QQ hitting a gutter. QQ helps us (most of the time) and if he has a flush draw in his range, he has 3 others suits of all those hands he called pre that he's going to fold (presumably, unless he'd like to bluff this board oop with no equity in a 4bet pot). And if somehow he has 98s here he's got 4 outs instead of 8.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

2x is my standard button open.

wow, interesting. Obviously means you have to win the blinds a lower % of the time for stealing to be $$ good. But.... you're going to be 3-bet way more too, which means needing to be very comfortable playing 3bet pots against poorly defined ranges.

[quote="Micro2Macro"]

Originally Posted by d0zer

Do you have any reason to believe he's going from 2->9 without real strength?.
all the regs 3bet me to like 9 or so when I open to 2...some even make it 10 lol.

it's cos they don't want to give your low pocket pair decent implied odds - they've seen so many players get cute min-opening 22 in mp and snap calling the 3x with decent set-mining odds. And it makes life tougher for the min-opener. I don't think this is bad play by the regs at all.

Originally Posted by daven

it's cos they don't want to give your low pocket pair decent implied odds - they've seen so many players get cute min-opening 22 in mp and snap calling the 3x with decent set-mining odds. And it makes life tougher for the min-opener. I don't think this is bad play by the regs at all.

Whenever someone makes a 10x or higher 3bet pre-flop in a blind steal situation, I usually make a note "Can't play post-flop" and then I look for situations to shove all-in the next time they do it because now they can't play pre-flop either.

the 4bet is fine, but this flop completely collides with his 4bet flatting range so i'd just check it down. You have a gutter so its not so bad.

Originally Posted by Jason

Whenever someone makes a 10x or higher 3bet pre-flop in a blind steal situation, I usually make a note "Can't play post-flop" and then I look for situations to shove all-in the next time they do it because now they can't play pre-flop either.

Whats wrong with 10x'ing a blind steal attempt? It actually makes playing 3-bet pots OOP much easier as the majority of regs play ridiculously straightforward in 3-bet pots even IP. You shouldn't make this note purely based on their preflop betsize, I don't think a note like this is useful at all.

@M2M: I don't make plays like this (ie 4-bet pre in this spot with this hand) unless I have a good sample saying he has a high fold to 4-bet% in these spots. Not saying its terrible or anything, but if he has trouble letting go of hands preflop after he 3-bets then I would at least wait for a hand that has better flop potential than K-5. 4-bet size is slightly large for me, I'd make it $22 here but meh

After this flops comes down I go into checkdown mode, flop bet accomplishes little and gives him the opportunity to own you.

I haven't experimented with min-opening the button, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it could be optimal unless the blinds were super spewy. How's it been working out for you?

4bet is OK, but this is not the board to bluff on

yeah this looks fine to me cept like they said why the f r u betting this flop ? Also am pretty sure most regs are 3bing from 2-9 give or a take a bb here

Originally Posted by caddie444

Originally Posted by Jason

Whenever someone makes a 10x or higher 3bet pre-flop in a blind steal situation, I usually make a note "Can't play post-flop" and then I look for situations to shove all-in the next time they do it because now they can't play pre-flop either.

Whats wrong with 10x'ing a blind steal attempt? It actually makes playing 3-bet pots OOP much easier as the majority of regs play ridiculously straightforward in 3-bet pots even IP. You shouldn't make this note purely based on their preflop betsize, I don't think a note like this is useful at all.

I could be wrong, but it's my opinion that if you 10x 3 bet with an inferior hand and you think villain will fold on a steal attempt, I guess it's "ok", but would they not also fold to a 7x? Furthermore, if you 10x 3 bet with premium hands and they fold, you just lost a LOT of value. To me, this play is very similar to short stack strategy, but with a full stack. Yes, 10x 3bets make it "easier", but not in a value oriented way imo. You're basically saying "I can't or don't want to play post flop, so let's just both put in 10% of our stack right now in this stubborn game of chicken".

I'm still open to counter arguments, but I have thought about it before, and that's my opinion. For this particular hand, I would probably have time banked and shoved if I thought he was doing this with trash. If he's doing it with pocket pairs, I'd probably wait till I had a couple of broadways or a pp myself. I mean, you basically just have to take it to the next level or avoid trying to steal their blind. I tend to think a 4 bet and trying to play after the flop is a mistake because you've put in 25% of your stack preflop - just get it in if you're going to do that and put the pressure on HIM to call.

I would also advocate checking behind BUT if I was going to bluff on this board, I'd go all-in. As long as he doesn't have an ace or monster, he'll be hard pressed to call off the rest. The 17 into 53 looks weak and it invites him to over shove his trash on our trash.